Klarinet Archive - Posting 000069.txt from 1998/10
From: "Steven J. Goldman M.D." <gpsc@-----.com>
Subj: RE: [kl] Re: Wagner
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 22:18:21 -0400
John, while I understand your point of view I think it is misguided in this
case. Perhaps you are not aware of the type of anti-Semitism that came into
vogue in Europe during the second half of the 19th century. It was truly a
low point in the history of European thought (not as bad in the UK, worse in
France and worst in Germany). There was a fundamental change from a
religious foundation to a pseudoscientific, psudosociological bases. This
allowed hateful individuals to dehumanize the Jew (or any group they hated).
If you read some of the literature - by otherwise intelligent people who
should have known better - it would make your blood run cold. We're not
talking about an occasional thoughtless remark here. And even though some of
the writers of this trash may not have contemplated Awschwitz (many would
have accepted confiscation of wealth and forced deportation to 3rd world
countries), the final Nazi solution was a perfectly logical extension of the
philosophy. All it took was for someone nutty enough to be in control of a
people used to following orders (Germany had no real Democratic tradition
until after the war). This was the type of anti-Semitic, anti-nonaryan
philosophy that Wagner glorified, and all who held it, including Wagner,
must be held in some respect responsible for the horror that was to come.
Other writers to the list have compared Beethoven to Wagner. I cannot see
the parallel. I see opposites here. Beethoven may have been a misanthropic
grouch on the exterior, but underneath was a man of beauty who saw all
humanity as brothers. Wagner may have wrote beautiful music but underneath
was vial poison, the glorification of one particular group and the
questioning of others equality and even humanity. One loves Beethoven the
man not for what he was superficially, but for what he felt, his soul if you
will. For me, what Wagner felt blackens all that he did superficially.
Steve Goldman
sjgoldman@-----.com
-----Original Message-----
From: johnd@-----.com]
Subject: [kl] Re: Wagner
I don't think it's possible for anyone alive today to properly judge the
attitudes of previous generations to the Jews because our views will
forever be shaped by the horrors of the holocaust, and we can never
separate the two. It seems to me that many otherwise perfectly
respectable people had degrees of prejudice, ranging from mild distaste
to downright anti-semitism, but you cannot thereby imply that they would
have acquiesced in, or in any way approved of, genocide. My own Mother,
now 83, remembers as a girl calling someone who didn't pay their share a
"mean old Jew" in a jocular manner, without even thinking what it meant,
but in her dealings with people she has always treated everyone with
proper courtesy and respect whatever their race, and I can't imagine she
was any different before I was born.
So, how can we judge Wagner's anti-semitism? It's impossible. Maybe he
would have colluded and approved of the mass-murder of millions, maybe
he wouldn't, we can never know. I prefer to enjoy the music and the
stories behind them on my own level, which doesn't involve racist
assumptions. If Wagner was wrong to portray an evil character as a
Jewish caricature, that doesn't alter the fact that there are evil
people in the world and they can be be legimately portrayed in a drama,
and I find it perfectly possible to separate the two. By this I mean
seeing the evil while ignoring the Jewishness Other people may not be
able to, and I have every and respect and sympathy for them. Indeed, if
I had any personal connection with victims of the Nazis I might well
feel very different.
Everyone must make up their own mind, but I don't think we can
*necessarily* condemn a man because of the actions of later generations.
John Dablin
Aylesbury UK
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