Klarinet Archive - Posting 000204.txt from 1998/07

From: "Kevin Fay (LCA)" <kevinfay@-----.com>
Subj: [kl] Cultural Relativism (was Mozart and the V word)
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 16:07:37 -0400

Wow. Deja Vu all over again. What we have here is the entire debate over
cultural relativism, boiled down to the question of whether it is
appropriate to use vibrato in the Mozart concerto.

I have seen these arguments both in philosophy classes back in my
undergraduate years (when mastodons roamed the Earth) and again in law
school. Believe it or not, this debate is essentially the same one that
roiled the faculty of the Harvard Law School about 10 years ago. The
"Critical Legal Studies" movement basically split the faculty into 2 camps,
who still don't talk to each other. This debate has been going on since
Plato and Aristotle; I suspect we won't solve it on this list server.

In a nutshell: the "conservative" position is that facts are facts, and
that you can tell or prove they are facts ("truths") by personal
observation. An example--the "fact" that a specimen of hamburger meat is
contaminated. I know this because I can see the bacteria under a
microscope; if I wait, I can tell by smelling. Now, if you can't see the
bacteria, it's because your microscope is defective--the microbes are still
there. One system of observation (my microscope) can indeed be superior to
another (your microscope); you can tell this (which is itself a fact) by the
empirical evidence that I can see the bacteria and you can't. This is a
useful philosophy for scientists, whose world view is dependent on
observation. Among other things, it justifies the expense of buying the
better microscope.

The "radical" position is that there are no facts, only the observation (the
"opinion") of the relevant observer. (This is basically Plato's observation
that tables exist only in the mind--what you have your dinner resting on is
merely an imperfect rendition of the perfect/imaginary "form" of table.)
What makes this position "radical" is the corollary that all opinions are
equally valid. This isn't all that controversial when speaking about items
that clearly are matters of personal taste--e.g., vanilla is the best flavor
of ice cream--but certainly can be when the "opinions" expressed are matters
of social norm, such as religion, morality, and the "opinions" of judges.
An example of the cultural relativist position: In some cultures, teenage
pregnancy, incest and polygamy are the social norm; to the cultural
relativist, our society's predilection against them is simply a matter of
choice--and one choice has no inherent value over another.

Which brings us to Mozart. If using modern instruments and vibrato is
merely a matter of personal preference, then a debate on their use should
cause no more heat than a discussion of ice cream flavors. I don't think
that Drs. Lacy and Goldman are arguing that the undesirability of Mozartian
vibrato is a "fact"--although the relativist perspective often would like to
characterize the opposing viewpoint as such to make debate easier.

Perhaps what they are saying (and forgive me if I mischaracterize) is that
all opinions on the subject are not necessarily equally valid. Under their
performance tradition (their "subculture," if you like) "doing whatever you
like" with the Mozart concerto just because you think it sounds good is
"wrong." The opposing "subculture,"--holding that music is in the ears of
the listener, and that all approaches to performing the piece are therefore
of equal value--is to them not as valid a subculture, because it ignores the
scholastic tradition of Western music in which the concerto squarely sits.
To the "subculture" of Drs. Lacy and Goldman, adherence to traditional
performance practices is important, not just because it's inherently
"right," but also because the majority of orchestral musicians share those
values, and you will need to share them as well if you want to be a part of
that subculture.

Now, I am not taking a position either way--I might have a view on the
subject, but I'm chicken. My point here (to the extent there is one) is
that the debate is not of the issue itself, but of the values in the
respective "subcultures" in which the issue is placed. I'll just note that
flaming and counter-flaming is not going to solve the issue, which has been
a central question of Western philosophy for close to three thousand years.

I've managed to blow away another lunch hour on the Klarinet list--oh well.
(And it's sunny outside, too--in Seattle, this is a big deal.)

Wishing I was at the ClarinetFest,

kjf

-----Original Message-----
From: Barbara Guyll [mailto:grinanddizzy@-----.com]
Subject: Re: [kl] Re: Mozart and the V word

>>Steven Goldman wrote:
>Paulette's world view sends a chill down my spine.

Is this because it differs from your opinion, Dr. Goldman? Quite the
contrary was true in my case. It actually lifted my spirits.

>Sadly, it is a rather popular view is some academic circles - philosophy,
history, etc.

In other words are you saying that any academic circle that disagrees with
your viewpoint is a sorry one and should not be allowed to exsist. I would
say that Paulette's viewpoint is a happy one. It is your view that is
depressing.

>It takes analogies that sound good but are really not, such as the map one,
and uses them to come to totally incorrect conclusions.

This is your opinion. In my opinion they are correct!

>I guess the proper place to discuss this would be the philosophy list so I
won't try to take apart this view here.

It's just as well because so far you have taken up a lot of space in order
to say very little and prove nothing.

>Suffice it to say that under close inspection it is simplistic and
irrational.

Paulette's view is neither simplistic nor irrational and I am in total
agreement with her. She made several valid points!

IMHO it is closed minded thinking (such as I read in Dr. Goldman's post)
that has kept clarinet performance from moving into the modern age.

Ray Guyll
Kirkland, WA

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