Klarinet Archive - Posting 000175.txt from 1998/01
From: "Craig E. G. Countryman" <cegc@-----.net>
Subj: Re: STOP THIS ARGUMENT
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 08:17:40 -0500
I really hate to jump into this subject, because my response in only
another redunant response that will inevitably provoke even more fire on
an already over discussed topic.
I think cheddar, in sending her original post, was trying to stop
posting on the VPO subject, or at least slow it down. But, instead what
has happened is it generates even more postings!! Now, not only are we
debating the VPO issue, but this one as well. So, I would make a
suggestion to list members that, in the future, if you don't like a
topic hit the delete key, and if the bulk of mail is getting to be too
much either:
1. Go to the digest version
2. Leave the list for a few days until things settle down
To post a such an e-mail is extremely conterproductive, especially one
so nasty. I do credit cheddar with posting an apology though, thanks --
no offense taken.
Now, to the post that I wished specifcally to respond to:
Dan Leeson wrote:
"This unsigned note is seriously out of place on this list."
Neil Leupold responded:
In your opinion, Dan, perhaps it is. And it's not just out of place,
but "seriously" out of place. So now we know how Dan feels about it."
I take this comment of Neil's sarcastically, as I believe it was
intended. I'm not trying to pick a fight here, so don't misinterpret
this as such, but Dan really hits the nail on the head here. If you
wish to express a view sign a name. I always proudly sign my name to my
posts, whether they are controversial or not. If you have enough guts
to post you should have enough guts to sign your name. I know from my
own experience that I'm a typical high school kid. Sometimes I'm too
cocky, sometimes I make mistakes, but I am not afraid to make those
mistakes. It is okay to be wrong or to bring up controversy, and people
would take the post more seriously and respect you more if you do sign.
It takes courage to speak out in favor of something unpopular, and while
I may not agree you will have my respect.
Dan writes:
"...it is a breach of the intent of this list to attempt to quash a
discussion simply because you are not interested in it."
You bet it is, see my earlier remarks for further elaboration on this
point.
Neil writes:
"That depends on how broadly you perceive the intent of this list, Dan.
I say perceive, not define, because neither you, nor I, nor anybody
else is in a position to singularly define that intent. The list is
collective, and what you're reading now is my contribution to that
cumulative perception, in response to your own. Both are valid..."
Oh I wished you'd stopped there. But I won't take the quote out of
context...
"...but neither one is definitive in and of itself. And the person who
decided to let us know that he was tired of reading about women's rights
issues on a clarinet forum was offering us *his* perception. Since
Klarinet is an unmoderated forum, the only way we're going to gain
a definitive understanding of what the list's intent "should" be is
to take a formal poll, tally the results, and agree to abide by those
results. If somebody would like to volunteer their time and energy
to administrate such a poll, maybe we can resolve this issue once
and for all -- until another new person joins the list, at which
point we need to take the poll gain. You see what I'm getting at.
Such definition is completely elusive on an unmoderated list."
Indeed Neil, we should all participate fully and give our thoughts.
But, I would appreciate if, in the future, people would be nicer in
presenting their arguments. For instance, the mere Topic heading of
this message, all in caps implies a commanding, nastiness. That is my
main problem with the request. Also, the request doesn't provoke the
response it hopes (I have observed this several times over the past
months) so why waste the time of:
a. The person to write it
b. Everyone to read it
c. Our time to respond to it
I have no objection the post, all I have to do is delete is, but isn't
there a better way?
Dan:
"The concept of gender/race/ethnic discrimination in symphony
orchestras is very much a pertinent topic to this list and if
you are annoyed by it, then feel free either to delete postings
of that nature or else leave the list."
"This is what disappoints me the most. The basic response when disputes
come up about what is appropriate fare for the list is almost
always, "If you don't like it, ignore it, or go to hell."
Well, the other choice is where we are now and that doesn't seem to be
working. I don't take this as Dan's attitude at all. He doesn't make
this statement in hostility, but as a suggestion, as do I.
Neil:
"We keep losing members -- helpful, knowledgeable, interesting members
-- due to the attitude "I'm going to say whatever I think and feel
with impunity, and I couldn't care less about whether or not you
stick around hear it." And then people leave. People are going
to argue and fight and disagree -- that's a simple fact. But I
really think we're defeating ourselves when we reach the point of
dismissing even a single member's participation (i.e.; sanctioning
the attitude that leaving the list should be a reasonable response),
because ultimately that single member could be you, and then the list
suffers for your absence. Nobody on the list is here expressly to
stir up shit. A few people have ventured into the circle with exactly
that mindset, and they were promptly pummeled with written requests to
go away. And they did. We don't have anybody on the list like that
now as far as I can determine."
I wasn't aware of this, and I am truly sorry if this is the case. But,
people cannot be so bull-headed as to leave the list over trivial
things. It is a time consuming committment and if someone decides it is
too much that is okay, but they should be aware there are other options:
delete key and digest mode.
Dan:
"I neither know nor care about how alone you are in your view that this
argument is getting annoying."
I second this, but if you do wish to express that to the list go ahead.
Expressing it only worsens things though.
Just thought I'd put in my two sense. If you don't want it you may
delete it, I totally understand, but I hope I've presented my views and
rebuttals in a straight-forward manner. I have tried to refrain from
emotional responses, but instead look at the facts -- as I see them.
Take from this what you will.
Sincerely,
-------------------------------------
Craig Countryman
http://www.sneezy.org/clarinet/YPP/Craig.html
http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/1711
ICQ Uin: 1106304
Quote of the Day:
"If you concentrate on finding whatever is good in every
situation, you will discover that your life will suddenly
be filled with gratitude, a feeling
that nurtures the soul." -Harold Kushner
