Klarinet Archive - Posting 000384.txt from 1997/03

From: "Edwin V. Lacy" <el2@-----.EDU>
Subj: Re: Bass clar. transposition and notation.
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 16:24:04 -0500

There have been several exchanges of messages on this topic. Part of the
problem is that some of the replies have incorporated parts of several
different messages by different writers, so no doubt anyone who was
looking to the list for information on the topic is now more confused
than ever!

First, let's acknowledge that Mr. Bloom is the expert on this, as he deals
with the question every day from first-hand knowledge.

There seems to have been some semantic difficulty in this exchange. Here
is a little more about the sources and authority I used when I wrote about
the notation of bass clarinet.

Quoting from "The Technique of Orchestration" by Kent Kennan and Donald
Grantham: "In approaching the notation of the bass clarinet, we come
across a rather confusing convention: when written in the treble clef as
it commonly is today, the instrument sounds a major 9th lower than
written; but in earlier scores it was sometimes written in the bass clef,
in which case it sounds a major 2nd lower than written. These two types
of notation are known, respectively, as the "French system" (treble clef)
and the "German system" (bass clef). However these names must not be
taken too literally; there are instances of bass clef parts in French
music and treble clef parts in German music."

>From "The Study of Orchestration" by Samuel Adler:

"There is a further complication in the method of notating a bass clarinet
part. In German scores, the instrument is usually notated in the bass
clef, in which case one transposes each pitch one whole step down from
where it is written. [Note (el): this is rather confusing terminology.
He means that this is what you do when you want to find out what the
concert pitch is.] The French notate the Bb bass clarinet in the treble
clef, to be transposed down a major ninth from where it is written. The
French way is most commonly used in all scores today."

Walter Piston, in "Orchestration" states: "There are two systems of
notation in common use, called French and German, terms that may have
possessed logic when they originated. Subsequently, both systems have
been employed by French and German composers interchangeably, but the
names persist. In the French system, the part is written throughout in
the treble clef, exactly as though for the ordinary Bb clarinet, the
sounds being a major ninth lower. In the German system, the bass is used
as the normal clef, the treble clef being employed only when the part lies
so high that keeping to the bass clef would require several leger lines.
The sounds are a major second lower than written, in either clef."

In "Orchestration" by Stephen Douglas Burton, the possibility of writing
the bass clarinet in bass clef is not mentioned. He gives only the treble
clef usage, with the M9 transposition.

In "Principles of Orchestration," Nikolai Rimsky-Korsakov does not mention
the possibility of writing the bass clarinet in bass clef. He shows the
entire range down to low C, but all written in treble clef. However,
according to Oskar Kroll (see below) Rimsky's sometimes writes the bass
clarinet in bass clef with the M2 transposition but in the treble clef
transposed a M9.

Several other orchestration texts did not mention this at all. I was also
somewhat surprised to find that Adam Carse did not cover the topic in his
books, including "The History of Orchestration" and "Musical Wind
Instruments."

Also, most music theory books do not mention the problem of transposition.
However, one which does is "Music - Patterns and Style" by Richard DeLone.
He has two charts showing bass clarinet transposition: one shows the
part written in treble clef and the other in bass clef, with the
annotation, "In treble clef: M9 lower; In bass clef: M2 lower. If the
part begins with notes in treble clef, ambiguity may exist as to which
notation is to be followed. A footnote is sometimes given to make this
clear, e.g., "sounding a major ninth (or major second) lower."

In "The Clarinet" by Oskar Kroll, we can read: "Regrettably, there is no
uniformity in the notation for the bass clarinet. The easiest from the
player's point of view is the so-called French notation in treble clef a
ninth too high, that is the written notes correspond to the same fingering
as on the normal clarinet. The so-called German notation is in bass clef
one tone too high, which is more difficult for the player, especially if
he has to transpose parts written in A at the same time. Moreover, in the
German notation, the high notes are written in treble clef to save ledger
lines, and still one tone above the sound, which means in practice the
player has to do an octave transposition. To make matters worse, some
composers (Rimsky-Korsakov) use the German method in the bass clef and the
French method in the treble clef (also Stravinsky in 'The Rite of
Spring').Preferably, the French notation should be used, at least for the
parts.

Now, am I understanding all this correctly? Was I unclear in one of my
previous posts on the topic?

*****************************************************************
Dr. Edwin Lacy University of Evansville
Professor of Music 1800 Lincoln Avenue
Evansville, IN 47722
el2@-----.edu (812)479-2754
*****************************************************************

On Tue, 11 Mar 1997, J. Lawrie Bloom wrote:

> >> On Sun, 9 Mar 1997, Edwin V. Lacy wrote:
> >>
> >
> >Let's say you want to sound the note "c" which is one octave below middle
> >C. On the grand staff, with no transpositions involved, you would write
> >the note I am talking about on the 2nd space of the bass clef.
> >
> >The way that would be written today for the bass clarinet, you would
> >transpose it up one octave plus a whole step, and write it in the treble
> >clef. Therefore, the note would be written as a D on the first space
> >below the staff. However, if the part contained a lot of low note
> >playing, enough so that the many added ledger lines below the staff would
> >be confusing, you could write it in bass clef. However, the transposition
> >would be the same, so you would write D on the second space above the bass
> >clef staff.
>
> No, it would be on the middle line in bass clef! The note you've written
> will give you middle C concert.
> >
> >However, in the 19th century, there was a different convention. When the
> >bass clarinet was written in the treble clef, it was handled just as
> >above. But, in the bass clef, the transposition was just a whole step, or
> >major second. Thus, to sound the same C we were talking about before, the
> >composer or arranger would have written D on the 3rd line of the bass
> >clef.
> >
> Could you give us an example of this happening in a specific piece? I've
> never come across what you are describing. Now remember, bass parts are
> not always the same as what you see in the score! Lots of times the score
> will be in one clef and the printed part in another.
>
> >That practice extended into the 20th century for some composers. Some of
> >them might occasionally be so considerate as to put a note in the score
> >telling which transposition they were using. They more often did this for
> >the French horns, who have a similar but even more complicated problem.
> >If there is no indication, the player has to try to figure out from the
> >context which is involved. Often, the best places for looking for clues
> >are at the places where the changes from one clef to the other occur. For
> >example, if there is a melodic passage which begins in treble clef and
> >then changes to bass, it might be possible to tell which transposition is
> >called for. Another clue could be the tessitura. For example, if in
> >using one transposition or the other the part would remain for long
> >passages in the extreme registers in the bass clef part, or exceed the
> >normal limitations of the range of the instrument, that might tell you
> >what the composer was thinking.
> >
> >
> >Note that no matter which procedure the composer would follow for notes in
> >the bass clef, the treble clef parts should be unaffected.
>
> What about Strauss? In a tone poem like Death and Transfiguration, or
> Symphonica Domestica both clefs are involved and when it's in treble clef
> you play up an octave from what you see written. Several French composers
> also used this technique, though it is sometimes referred to as "German
> notation".