| Brought to you this hour by |  | Advertising and Web Hosting on Woodwind.Org! |
Doublereed Archive - Posting 000017.txt from 2007/02
From: Itzik Dekel <dekely@-----.il>
Subj: [DR-L] RE: doublereed Digest 2 Feb 2007 10:01:01 -0000 Issue 1416
Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2007 03:32:37 -0500
Hi there Sameer!
I did what you suggested and wrote to Nora Post, though I did not see they
have a forum to write to. Am I wrong ?
Are you living in the mediterranean ? Are we neighbours ?
-----Original Message-----
From: doublereed-digest-help@-----.org
[mailto:doublereed-digest-help@-----.org]
Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 12:01 PM
To: doublereed@-----.org
Subject: doublereed Digest 2 Feb 2007 10:01:01 -0000 Issue 1416
doublereed Digest 2 Feb 2007 10:01:01 -0000 Issue 1416
Topics (messages 4779 through 4783):
Age of my English Horn
4779 by: Itzik Dekel
4780 by: Sameer Al-Abdullah
Re: QOD
4781 by: herb fawcett
4782 by: herb fawcett
4783 by: herb fawcett
Administrivia:
To subscribe to the digest, e-mail:
doublereed-digest-subscribe@-----.org
To post to the list, e-mail:
doublereed@-----.org
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 23:31:37 +0200
To: doublereed@-----.org
From: Itzik Dekel <dekely@-----.il>
Subject: Age of my English Horn
Message-id: <004601c74648$5f11f330$8d00a8c0@abba>
I wander wether the list people could help me out finding the year in which
my "historical" E.H. was produced. It is a Rigoutat with a serial number
108.
They, at Rigoutat I mean, couldn't solve the question. It was ofcourse
produced by Rigoutat the father which had a different serial numbering then
today
Tnx
Itzik Dekel
Israel
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 01:19:54 +0300
To: doublereed@-----.org
From: "Sameer Al-Abdullah" <simsim29@-----.com>
Subject: Re: [DR-L] Age of my English Horn
Message-ID: <5e7714180702011419r147d33f8kaebaeb09f3ad81@-----.com>
Did you try Nora Post?
www.norapost.com
good luck :)
Sameer
On 2/2/07, Itzik Dekel <dekely@-----.il> wrote:
>
>
> I wander wether the list people could help me out finding the year in
which
> my "historical" E.H. was produced. It is a Rigoutat with a serial number
> 108.
> They, at Rigoutat I mean, couldn't solve the question. It was ofcourse
> produced by Rigoutat the father which had a different serial numbering
then
> today
>
> Tnx
> Itzik Dekel
> Israel
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> It's the Woodwind.Org 2007 donation drive!
> Visit https://secure.donax-us.com/donations/ for more information
> For personal help: email doublereed-owner@-----.org
> Doublereed is a service of Woodwind.Org, Inc. http://www.woodwind.org
>
>
--
Sameer Al-Abdullah
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 16:59:17 -0800
To: "doublereed@-----.org>
From: herb fawcett <herbgosia@-----.net>
Subject: Re: [DR-L] QOD
Message-ID: <C1E7CCE5.18B54%herbgosia@-----.net>
My opinion of the use of the nuke was that whoever the adventurous enemy ma=
y
have been, the deterrent did its job. USSR was definitely on the move, and
we needed to finish the thing and make an ally of the Japanese. I have no
feeling of guilt in the matter whatsoever. I don't know where you got your
information that the war was effectively over; my father was a senior USMC
officer, and told me that there were serious preparations under way for the
invasion of the Japanese homeland. They, too, were preparing and arming the
citizens with sharpened bamboo sticks as well as one-time firearms.
Resistant civilians are the enemy. They were preparing to commit seppuku.
We just helped them out.
Herb =20
On 1/31/07 7:41 PM, "Dennis Thiel" <dathiel@-----.au> wrote:
> Matthew,
>=20
> I do not intend getting into a Holocaust discussions with anyone. I
> merely pointed out that hundreds of thousands of Japanese, mainly
> civilian women and children, were burned to death in two split seconds.
> Huge numbers also died in the minutes and years following, from
> radiation etc.
>=20
> This bombing was not to end the war ... that was already about to happen
> diplomatically. It was done to frighten the Russians, with an object
> lesson. http://www.lewrockwell.com/rogers/rogers205.htmld
>=20
> Nine million African slaves died on their way to America ... tossed over
> board in storms etc.etc. Where do we stop?
>=20
> I'd be much more worried by US use of Depleted Uranium weapons in
> Bosnia, Iraq and Afghanistan. Thousands of tonnes of DU sub-micron dust
> is now in the atmosphere, measurably floating on prevailing winds into
> all parts of the World. This wildly stupid activity may well bring life
> on Earth to an end. Daniel Ellsberg might agree with this.
>=20
> Dennis.
>=20
>=20
> Matthew Peaceman wrote:
>> Hi Dennis,
>>=20
>> "As was experienced by hundreds of thousands of Japanese civilians."
>>=20
>> I hope you would acknowledge that there is a 'slight' difference
>> between using a weapon to stop a country that killed FAR more
>> civilians in its imperialistic quest to conquer its region (Japan
>> against all of the Far East) and creating factories to enslave and
>> then murder millions of innocent, non-aggressive victims purely
>> because of their religious/cultural origins (we are not even speaking
>> of their beliefs here) or sexual preferences. One may certainly argue
>> that all methods of killing are inherently, potentially immoral. I
>> think there can be no mistaking that. Comparing Hiroshima and Nagasaki
>> directly to Auschwitz (as you did) is flawed comparison. It
>> trivialises all of what Auschwitz symbolizes today. Following this
>> line of thought does not lead to a pretty place.
>>=20
>> I presume Ellsberg's use of the word 'portable' is taken somewhat out
>> of context here. If not, we have to assume that it comes from a purely
>> pacifistic corner. This is not the place to discuss whether or not
>> Pacifism is a viable response to every form of
>> political/military/terrorist aggression. But assuming the Japanese
>> were not going to stop the war in the Pacific because the rest of the
>> world organsied a sit-down or hunger strike and since they used every
>> weapon available to them to continue, it's sort of hard to accept a
>> plea of 'NO FAIR' for the use of the bomb. This would have been the
>> case in Europe against the Germans
>> as well, had we used an atomic weapon against them. We didn't have it
>> at the time so we just fire bombed them into submission. On the
>> surface and taken out of context, all terribly immoral....
>> I would rewrite Ellsberg's quote to "Every nuclear weapon is a
>> *potential* holocaust." Then your response would be acceptable.
>> Every genocide has its context. The word genocide (for which Auschwitz
>> has become a universal symbol) has a definition though. Webster/Miriam
>> Dictionary
>> Main Entry: *geno=B7cide*
>> : the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or
>> cultural group
>> Hiroshima and Nagasaki do not exactly fit into this catagorie.
>>=20
>> Matthew
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>> "Every nuclear weapon is a portable Auschwitz."
>>>=20
>>> -Daniel Ellsberg (1931) former American military analyst
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> ------------------------------
>>>=20
>>> Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 15:31:12 +1100
>>> To: doublereed@-----.org
>>> From: Dennis Thiel <dathiel@-----.au>
>>> Subject: Re: [DR-L] Quote of the Day
>>> Message-ID: <45C01B90.9060601@-----.au>
>>>=20
>>> As was experienced by hundreds of thousands of Japanese civilians.
>>>=20
>>> Many far more currently pertinent quotes of Daniel Ellsberg ... here
>>>
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=3D/chronicle/archive/2004/=
02/29
>>> /CMG3R50LHE5.DTL
>>>=20
>>> Dennis.
>>>=20
>>> Oboeeee@-----.com wrote:
>=20
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> It's the Woodwind.Org 2007 donation drive!
> Visit https://secure.donax-us.com/donations/ for more information
> For personal help: email doublereed-owner@-----.org
> Doublereed is a service of Woodwind.Org, Inc. http://www.woodwind.org
>=20
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 17:14:57 -0800
To: "doublereed@-----.org>
From: herb fawcett <herbgosia@-----.net>
Subject: Re: [DR-L] QOD
Message-ID: <C1E7D091.18B59%herbgosia@-----.net>
Dennis,
Yours is an interesting and thoroughly disproven "conspiracy" theory.
Admittedly Roosevelt needed to enter the war to protect UK from total loss,
but to lose his Pacific Fleet to do so? I doubt it. There was a blockade of
SE Asia to limit Japan's access to oil, rubber, and tin, and to interrupt
shipping in general. For them to break the blockade would have been an "act
of war" so they tried a bigger gesture with the same effect. We were in real
trouble for quite some time, and even politicians are not that dumb.
Ed and I are apparently from the same vintage, and I have an added advantage
in that I am the son of a senior USMC officer. He was able to share a good
deal of (military - not diplomatic) history with me. He landed at
Guadalcanal, Iwo, and Okinawa, so not exactly desk-bound.
I maintain that fewer lives were wasted by Truman's use of massive force in
the nuke. The continued fire-bombing (conventional) of their cities would
have taken at least an equal toll, and an invasion of those singularly
fanatical people would have been outrageous.
Herb
On 2/1/07 3:09 AM, "Dennis Thiel" <dathiel@-----.au> wrote:
> Edwin,
>
> Like you, I reacted to an off topic QOD. It is likely that my age
> exceeds yours and I do have a very good memory. I don't believe there
> ever was a fun war.
>
> You may know of how Roosevelt used subterfuge to ensure that USA was
> attacked by the Japanese at Pearl Harbour. He dearly wanted to get into
> the European war, but Hitler wouldn't attack anything belonging to US.
> Your Constitution ensured that he could not declare a war without US
> being first attacked. He goaded the Japanese into attacking US, to give
> him the Constitutional right to declare war on Japan, therefore
> automatically upon Germany, against the then will of the US people. That
> he deliberately hoodwinked his own people at Pearl Harbour, greatly
> compounds his treasonable act.
>
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/pearl/www.geocities.com/Pentagon/6315/pear
l.
> html
>
> "Those who ignore history are destined to relive it." Relived twice
> ... in Viet Nam and currently, via 9/11, in the Middle East.
>
> This ends my input.
>
> Dennis.
>
>
> Lacy, Edwin wrote:
>> <<<This bombing (Hiroshima and Nagasaki) was not to end the war ... that
>> was already about to happen diplomatically. It was done to frighten the
>> Russians, with an object lesson.>>>
>>
>> I am very reluctant to enter this conversation, which undoubtedly is
>> about as far off-topic as we could get. However, I hate to see this
>> kind of assertion disseminated without being questioned.
>>
>> Undoubtedly, whoever wrote this is not as old as I am, and probably
>> doesn't have as clear a memory of the World War II era as I do.
>> (SNIP)
>>
>> Ed Lacy
>> University of Evansville
>>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> It's the Woodwind.Org 2007 donation drive!
> Visit https://secure.donax-us.com/donations/ for more information
> For personal help: email doublereed-owner@-----.org
> Doublereed is a service of Woodwind.Org, Inc. http://www.woodwind.org
>
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 17:22:49 -0800
To: "doublereed@-----.org>
From: herb fawcett <herbgosia@-----.net>
Subject: Re: [DR-L] QOD
Message-ID: <C1E7D269.18B5C%herbgosia@-----.net>
Coventry was, in fact, sacrificed to cover and protect our knowledge of
Enigma. Enigma had revealed the Nazi plan to bomb Coventry, and Churchill
decided to "let it go" to protect our intelligence advantage in the hope for
invasion of the Continent. Why we needed revenge is beyond me. I believe
there were ball bearings manufactured near Dresden, and with the notoriously
inaccurate bombing techniques, much else was also lost. Those civilians
didn't have perfectly clean hands either, as they remained silent about the
London bombings, the V1 and V2, the occupation of Poland, and the siege of
Stalingrad, among other indecencies.
Herb
On 2/1/07 7:31 AM, "Robert A. Losinno" <roblos@-----.net> wrote:
> Not only is Ed on the spot but has anyone ever considered the fact that
more
> people perished in the fire bombing of Dresden than Hiroshima and Nagasaki
> combined? This is never seems to be mentioned. It certainly wasn't done
> to scare the Russians. In fact Dresden was of little if any military
> significance. It was bombed basically out of revenge for the Nazi bombing
> of Coventry.
>
> Robert
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gtowle83@-----.net]
> Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2007 12:45 AM
> To: doublereed@-----.org
> Subject: Re: [DR-L] QOD
>
> Ed,
>
> I was a little kid when the war ended, but based on all I have read on
this
> subject you are spot on.
>
> Best,
>
> john
> -------------- Original message ----------------------
> From: Donald MacCourt <maccourt@-----.net>
>> Ed,
>> I remember ane I agree.
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Lacy, Edwin" <el2@-----.edu>
>> To: <doublereed@-----.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 11:21 PM
>> Subject: RE: [DR-L] QOD
>>
>>
>>> <<<This bombing (Hiroshima and Nagasaki) was not to end the war ... that
>>> was already about to happen diplomatically. It was done to frighten the
>>> Russians, with an object lesson.>>>
>>>
>>> I am very reluctant to enter this conversation, which undoubtedly is
>>> about as far off-topic as we could get. However, I hate to see this
>>> kind of assertion disseminated without being questioned.
>>>
>>> Undoubtedly, whoever wrote this is not as old as I am, and probably
>>> doesn't have as clear a memory of the World War II era as I do.
>>>
>>> In fact, in the so-called "island hopping" that the US had been engaging
>>> in, along with a few allies such as Australia and New Zealand and
>>> others, was getting more costly and more tragic as the action moved
>>> closer to Japan itself. As long as the disputed territories were
>>> isolated islands in the Pacific, the fighting, while deadly and vicious,
>>> did not reach the levels of fanaticism that were triggered when fighting
>>> was taking place on areas that the Japanese considered their home
>>> islands.
>>>
>>> By the time the fighting reached Iwo Jima, about 750 miles from Tokyo,
>>> the slaughter reached higher proportions. The battle cost nearly 7,000
>>> American lives, and those of 21,000 Japanese, essentially the entire
>>> garrison there.
>>>
>>> The next step was Okinawa, only 350 miles from the mainland. Here, the
>>> final toll was 12,281 Americans and over 110,000 Japanese. The Japanese
>>> army had convinced the natives of Okinawa that the Americans intent was
>>> to torture, kill and perhaps eat them. As a result, many Okinawans
>>> killed themselves and their children.
>>>
>>> The next step would have been the invasion of the Japanese mainland. By
>>> this time, the Japanese were training women, children and elderly men to
>>> fight with any and all means at their disposal, including sharpened
>>> sticks if necessary. It was assumed that every Japanese person with
>>> whom the Americans would come into contact would fight to the death.
>>> There would be no survivors. Estimates were that fatalities resulting
>>> from this type of invasion might amount to between 500,000 and 1,000,000
>>> Americans and as many as 10 million Japanese.
>>>
>>> It was after seeing the results of the campaigns on Iwo Jima and
>>> Okinawa, and after receiving estimates and projections such as these
>>> that Truman made the decision to use the atomic bomb.
>>>
>>> In fact, a few months previously, in May of 1945, a conventional bombing
>>> campaign had decimated Tokyo, killing at least 100,000 people in one
>>> night. Estimates were that at least 60% to 65% of Japan's cities and
>>> industrial complex had already been destroyed. Yet, the Japanese
>>> doctrine of "Bushido" would not permit any consideration of surrender.
>>> In addition, certain fanatical high-ranking army officers would not even
>>> allow any mention of ending the war to be presented to the Emperor.
>>>
>>> Under those circumstances, obviously highly condensed here, who can say
>>> what decision any of us would have made in similar circumstances. To
>>> many people, it seems entirely possible that Truman's decision may have
>>> saved lives on both sides in the long run.
>>>
>>> I'm not an advocate for nuclear weapons, or for weapons of any kind for
>>> that matter. However, it seems to me that we are more horrified by such
>>> weapons of mass destruction because the instantaneous loss of so much
>>> human life seems so tragic. This extends to other areas of our lives.
>>> It always seems more traumatic when an airliner crash kills several
>>> hundred people in one incident that it does that about 40,000 Americans
>>> and nearly 1,200,000 people around the world are killed in automobile
>>> accidents every year.
>>>
>>> Ed Lacy
>>> University of Evansville
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> It's the Woodwind.Org 2007 donation drive!
>>> Visit https://secure.donax-us.com/donations/ for more information
>>> For personal help: email doublereed-owner@-----.org
>>> Doublereed is a service of Woodwind.Org, Inc. http://www.woodwind.org
>>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> It's the Woodwind.Org 2007 donation drive!
>> Visit https://secure.donax-us.com/donations/ for more information
>> For personal help: email doublereed-owner@-----.org
>> Doublereed is a service of Woodwind.Org, Inc. http://www.woodwind.org
>>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> It's the Woodwind.Org 2007 donation drive!
> Visit https://secure.donax-us.com/donations/ for more information
> For personal help: email doublereed-owner@-----.org
> Doublereed is a service of Woodwind.Org, Inc. http://www.woodwind.org
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.410 / Virus Database: 268.17.18/662 - Release Date: 1/31/2007
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> It's the Woodwind.Org 2007 donation drive!
> Visit https://secure.donax-us.com/donations/ for more information
> For personal help: email doublereed-owner@-----.org
> Doublereed is a service of Woodwind.Org, Inc. http://www.woodwind.org
>
------------------------------
End of doublereed Digest
***********************************
---------------------------------------------------------------------
It's the Woodwind.Org 2007 donation drive!
Visit https://secure.donax-us.com/donations/ for more information
For personal help: email doublereed-owner@-----.org
Doublereed is a service of Woodwind.Org, Inc. http://www.woodwind.org
