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Doublereed Archive - Posting 000013.txt from 2007/02
From: herb fawcett <herbgosia@-----.net>
Subj: Re: [DR-L] QOD
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 13:14:41 -0500
Thanks,
The cracking of Enigma was by "Ultra", a development of some Polish
geniuses. Thanks for the reference; I have read the A C Brown book. Have you
read the Ultra Secret? Also informative. I believe Ultra is right up there
with radar and the discovery of penicillin as contributors to our winning
that ungodly conflict.
Herb
On 2/2/07 7:19 AM, "gtowle83@-----.net> wrote:
> Herb et al.,
>
> There is a fascinating account of the Coventry/Enigma history contained in the
> rigorously documented book "Bodyguard of Lies" by Anthony Cave Brown.
> Churchill felt that the truth about the enemy was of such great importance in
> wartime that it (truth) had to be cloaked in a bodyguard of lies to ensure
> that no one except the command structure of the allies was privy to the
> information. The invention & implementation of the Enigma machine by the Brits
> in and of itself was one of the miracles of the 20th century IMHO. It is a
> great read, if you can get a hold of the book. I think it may be out of
> print, though.
>
> Best,
>
> john
> -------------- Original message ----------------------
> From: herb fawcett <herbgosia@-----.net>
>> Coventry was, in fact, sacrificed to cover and protect our knowledge of
>> Enigma. Enigma had revealed the Nazi plan to bomb Coventry, and Churchill
>> decided to "let it go" to protect our intelligence advantage in the hope for
>> invasion of the Continent. Why we needed revenge is beyond me. I believe
>> there were ball bearings manufactured near Dresden, and with the notoriously
>> inaccurate bombing techniques, much else was also lost. Those civilians
>> didn't have perfectly clean hands either, as they remained silent about the
>> London bombings, the V1 and V2, the occupation of Poland, and the siege of
>> Stalingrad, among other indecencies.
>> Herb
>>
>>
>> On 2/1/07 7:31 AM, "Robert A. Losinno" <roblos@-----.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Not only is Ed on the spot but has anyone ever considered the fact that more
>>> people perished in the fire bombing of Dresden than Hiroshima and Nagasaki
>>> combined? This is never seems to be mentioned. It certainly wasn't done
>>> to scare the Russians. In fact Dresden was of little if any military
>>> significance. It was bombed basically out of revenge for the Nazi bombing
>>> of Coventry.
>>>
>>> Robert
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: gtowle83@-----.net]
>>> Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2007 12:45 AM
>>> To: doublereed@-----.org
>>> Subject: Re: [DR-L] QOD
>>>
>>> Ed,
>>>
>>> I was a little kid when the war ended, but based on all I have read on this
>>> subject you are spot on.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> john
>>> -------------- Original message ----------------------
>>> From: Donald MacCourt <maccourt@-----.net>
>>>> Ed,
>>>> I remember ane I agree.
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Lacy, Edwin" <el2@-----.edu>
>>>> To: <doublereed@-----.org>
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 11:21 PM
>>>> Subject: RE: [DR-L] QOD
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> <<<This bombing (Hiroshima and Nagasaki) was not to end the war ... that
>>>>> was already about to happen diplomatically. It was done to frighten the
>>>>> Russians, with an object lesson.>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I am very reluctant to enter this conversation, which undoubtedly is
>>>>> about as far off-topic as we could get. However, I hate to see this
>>>>> kind of assertion disseminated without being questioned.
>>>>>
>>>>> Undoubtedly, whoever wrote this is not as old as I am, and probably
>>>>> doesn't have as clear a memory of the World War II era as I do.
>>>>>
>>>>> In fact, in the so-called "island hopping" that the US had been engaging
>>>>> in, along with a few allies such as Australia and New Zealand and
>>>>> others, was getting more costly and more tragic as the action moved
>>>>> closer to Japan itself. As long as the disputed territories were
>>>>> isolated islands in the Pacific, the fighting, while deadly and vicious,
>>>>> did not reach the levels of fanaticism that were triggered when fighting
>>>>> was taking place on areas that the Japanese considered their home
>>>>> islands.
>>>>>
>>>>> By the time the fighting reached Iwo Jima, about 750 miles from Tokyo,
>>>>> the slaughter reached higher proportions. The battle cost nearly 7,000
>>>>> American lives, and those of 21,000 Japanese, essentially the entire
>>>>> garrison there.
>>>>>
>>>>> The next step was Okinawa, only 350 miles from the mainland. Here, the
>>>>> final toll was 12,281 Americans and over 110,000 Japanese. The Japanese
>>>>> army had convinced the natives of Okinawa that the Americans intent was
>>>>> to torture, kill and perhaps eat them. As a result, many Okinawans
>>>>> killed themselves and their children.
>>>>>
>>>>> The next step would have been the invasion of the Japanese mainland. By
>>>>> this time, the Japanese were training women, children and elderly men to
>>>>> fight with any and all means at their disposal, including sharpened
>>>>> sticks if necessary. It was assumed that every Japanese person with
>>>>> whom the Americans would come into contact would fight to the death.
>>>>> There would be no survivors. Estimates were that fatalities resulting
>>>>> from this type of invasion might amount to between 500,000 and 1,000,000
>>>>> Americans and as many as 10 million Japanese.
>>>>>
>>>>> It was after seeing the results of the campaigns on Iwo Jima and
>>>>> Okinawa, and after receiving estimates and projections such as these
>>>>> that Truman made the decision to use the atomic bomb.
>>>>>
>>>>> In fact, a few months previously, in May of 1945, a conventional bombing
>>>>> campaign had decimated Tokyo, killing at least 100,000 people in one
>>>>> night. Estimates were that at least 60% to 65% of Japan's cities and
>>>>> industrial complex had already been destroyed. Yet, the Japanese
>>>>> doctrine of "Bushido" would not permit any consideration of surrender.
>>>>> In addition, certain fanatical high-ranking army officers would not even
>>>>> allow any mention of ending the war to be presented to the Emperor.
>>>>>
>>>>> Under those circumstances, obviously highly condensed here, who can say
>>>>> what decision any of us would have made in similar circumstances. To
>>>>> many people, it seems entirely possible that Truman's decision may have
>>>>> saved lives on both sides in the long run.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm not an advocate for nuclear weapons, or for weapons of any kind for
>>>>> that matter. However, it seems to me that we are more horrified by such
>>>>> weapons of mass destruction because the instantaneous loss of so much
>>>>> human life seems so tragic. This extends to other areas of our lives.
>>>>> It always seems more traumatic when an airliner crash kills several
>>>>> hundred people in one incident that it does that about 40,000 Americans
>>>>> and nearly 1,200,000 people around the world are killed in automobile
>>>>> accidents every year.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ed Lacy
>>>>> University of Evansville
>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>
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>>>
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>>
>>
>>
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>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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