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Doublereed Archive - Posting 000047.txt from 2006/02
From: Mark Flanzraich <mjf1947@-----.net>
Subj: [DR-L] Players Sounds
Date: Sat, 04 Feb 2006 09:05:13 -0500
Hello List,
My take on things are slightly different. I always believed that the
distinction between a dark or bright sound is really not the central
issue. From my perspective one needs a balanced reed that has a
"complex" sound (overtones) from all parts of the reed in a good
balance. And this complex sound must be wrapped in a flexible reed that
permits good intonation and expression. It "richness" of sound that I
believe needs to the objective of reed making as well as projection.
I agree that reeds that sound "dark" in the orchestra pit do not sound
the same at the back of the room. Similarly, reeds with that sound a
little "bright" in the pit sound lovely and rich in the far reaches of
the room.
The sound must be alive and move .......................................
Mark Flanzraich
-----Original Message-----
From: doublereed-digest-help@-----.org
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Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2006 5:01 AM
To: doublereed@-----.org
Subject: doublereed Digest 4 Feb 2006 10:01:01 -0000 Issue 894
doublereed Digest 4 Feb 2006 10:01:01 -0000 Issue 894
Topics (messages 2478 through 2488):
Re: Ray Still/Heinz Holliger... Favorites?
2478 by: Geoff Pearce
2479 by: Wai Kit Leung
2481 by: herb fawcett
2482 by: herb fawcett
2485 by: Stephen Kaupiko
2486 by: herb fawcett
2487 by: Geoff Pearce
2488 by: Stephen Kaupiko
Re: Ray Still/Heinz Holliger
2480 by: herb fawcett
2483 by: herb fawcett
Quote of the Day
2484 by: Oboeeee.aol.com
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2006 09:07:44 +1100 (AUS Eastern Standard Time)
To: <doublereed@-----.org>
From: "Geoff Pearce" <oboist2@-----.au>
Subject: Re: [DR-L] RE: Ray Still/Heinz Holliger... Favorites?
Message-Id: <43E3D430.000001.03976@GEOFFS>
Interestingly enough, a lot of Non-US players dont warm to the
American
sound because they find it too dark and unwieldy from a moderate
distance -
Up close and in chamber music, I have frequently heard the adjective
frying bacon" been expressed to descibe the buzzy sound one can often
hear,
which is not evident from a distance but is frequently up close. Many
non-US players I think also have an issue that many US schooled players
tend
to smooth out detached lines and make the tongue strokes longer and this
renders such passages "tongued" legato.
I guess at the end of the day, like any discipline, every style or
school
has its own preferences as to how things should be done. Personally
although I have been taught fairly constantly in one school, I hope that
I
can appreciate other ways of doing and thinking. I do not think I
sound
like anyone from my school, but on saying that, I have a pretty firm
idea
on what I want to sound like.
One of the dangers of comparing schools is that we get saturated with
one
sound, and then very often are either exposed to other sounds through
the
recording media only (which, not to offend sound engineers in the list)
and
that sounds quite different from hearing things live, when all sorts of
other forces come in to play. If we are exposed live, its often by
visiting orchestras or chamber players, that we are infrequently
exposed to
and that can mean an unconcious bias.
All the best to you all
Geoff Pearce (oboe)
Sydney
-------Original Message-------
From: Barbara trautwein
Date: 02/04/06 00:26:05
To: doublereed@-----.org
Subject: Re: [DR-L] RE: Ray Still/Heinz Holliger... Favorites?
Parochial is the word! In my isolation, I have never heard OF, let
Alone heard the playing of, many of the players listed below (except, of
Course, Allan Vogel and Elaine Douvas who both are wonderful).
Shame on me!
Stephen, not meaning to be picky but what do you mean when you say Allan
Vogel's "dark quality gets in the way"? In the way of what? His
Musicality? Do you have trouble hearing that because his sound detracts
You? That was the problem I had when listening to the European players
From the mid - 20th Century. I just couldn't get past what I had been
Taught as being the "wrong" sound to even be able to sense musicality.
I believe that the Americans felt that the depth of the dark sound
Enabled a player to reach an intensity of musical expression which
Didn't ring true with a lighter sound or one permeated with a buzzy
Vibrato.
I think that at the beginning of the 20th Century, the European
Orchestras played repertoire related to their home bases: Parisian
Groups played French music, Italian orchestras played Rossini and
Vivaldi, Germanic groups played Brahms. American orchestras, on the
Other hand, having virually NO repertoire of their own, had to play
Everything, French, German, Italian, Czech etc., and in bigger halls.
That, supposedly, was why Tabuteau devised the reed style and tone
Concept that he did. . .so that he could address the entire repertoire
And have it heard in all dynamic ranges in the the back of the big
Auditoriums.
I realize that this is pretty simplistic but I think this is what many
Of us were taught. . . To make a reed with a core that would enable the
Tone to project with the richness needed in Brahms and Schumann but to
Be flexible enough to deal with Daphnis and Chloe and La Scala di Seta
And be responsive enough so that one would still be alive at the end of
A 10 to 13 service week.
I'm . . .uh. . . .still working on it. . . .
And I'd better get going. . . .
Barbara
Stephen Kaupiko wrote:
> Just so my liking of Heinz isn't taking too out of
> context these are my favorite oboists... In order of
> how I'm feeling right now.
>
> I wonder what everyone else likes. It would be nice to
> hear some new things.
>
> The list:
>
> Lajos Lences - Beautiful "singing" quality
>
> Ruth Bolister - Absolutley lovely "regal" sound.
>
> Pierre Pierlot - Simply floats on air with occaisional
> unexpected breezes of heavenly bliss.
>
> Hansjorg Schellenberger - Sweet and lilting
>
> Christian Hommel - Like butter!
>
> Cynthia DeAlmeida - She's has a bit of reedy character
> with a smidgen bit of that darkness. Very lovely
> playing.
>
> Allan Vogel - Absolutley phenomenal, but sometimes
> that dark quality gets in the way.
>
> Elaine Douvas - Very exressive and lyrical, but a bit
> submerged (I think it's the recording though)
>
> Burkhard Glaetzner - Sweet, if a bit submerged.
>
> Heinz Holliger - Baroque personified. Paired with a
> harpsichord his tone color rises to the occaision.
>
> ...left off the ones I didn't like, for lack of space.
> (Kidding!) >;)
>
> Regards,
> Stephen
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
>
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2006 22:29:58 +0000
To: doublereed@-----.org
From: "Wai Kit Leung" <wkleung11@-----.com>
Subject: Re: Ray Still/Heinz Holliger... Favorites?
Message-ID: <BAY113-F3621A60A9357EF998782A6A60D0@-----.gbl>
I think I should weigh in with my opinion:
I am not sure if it is correct to say that at the beginning of the
century
orchestras played only repertoire of their own country. Wagner was
played
in France; Vivaldi was NEVER played in Italy (or elsewhere) until much
later
in the century; the Germans never limit themselves to the German
repertoire.
Tabuteau changed his reed style not because he had to play all styles of
music (which he did of course), but to blend with the German bassoons.
In
France he played with bassoonists on the French system, and a change for
a
darker tone was required when he wanted to blend with his German bassoon
colleagues in the Philadelphia Orchestra.
I have heard many oboists from different countries live and have also
played
reeds from different schools, and in my opinion (just my opinion based
on my
sampling) European players get heard much better at the back of concert
halls -- they have better projections.
We have all been told by our teachers (or political leaders) certain
things,
but we should always question them, whether those are facts or opinions.
If
one, for example, tune in to a different station for the world news (say
on
the war in Iraq), you will get a very different picture. To me, it is
very
parochial to call the sound of Europeans "wrong" -- that means the world
never had the "right" oboe sound until the advent of Tabuteau in the US?
Sincerely,
Wai Kit Leung
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2006 09:26:05 -0500
>To: doublereed@-----.org
>From: barbara trautwein <mzeztee@-----.edu>
>Subject: Re: [DR-L] RE: Ray Still/Heinz Holliger... Favorites?
>Message-ID: <43E367FD.2080804@-----.edu>
>
>Parochial is the word! In my isolation, I have never heard OF, let
>alone heard the playing of, many of the players listed below (except,
of
>course, Allan Vogel and Elaine Douvas who both are wonderful).
>
>Shame on me!
>
>Stephen, not meaning to be picky but what do you mean when you say
Allan
>Vogel's "dark quality gets in the way"? In the way of what? His
>musicality? Do you have trouble hearing that because his sound
detracts
>you? That was the problem I had when listening to the European players
>from the mid - 20th Century. I just couldn't get past what I had been
>taught as being the "wrong" sound to even be able to sense musicality.
>
>I believe that the Americans felt that the depth of the dark sound
>enabled a player to reach an intensity of musical expression which
>didn't ring true with a lighter sound or one permeated with a buzzy
>vibrato.
>
>I think that at the beginning of the 20th Century, the European
>orchestras played repertoire related to their home bases: Parisian
>groups played French music, Italian orchestras played Rossini and
>Vivaldi, Germanic groups played Brahms. American orchestras, on the
>other hand, having virually NO repertoire of their own, had to play
>everything, French, German, Italian, Czech etc., and in bigger halls.
>That, supposedly, was why Tabuteau devised the reed style and tone
>concept that he did. . .so that he could address the entire repertoire
>and have it heard in all dynamic ranges in the the back of the big
>auditoriums.
>
>I realize that this is pretty simplistic but I think this is what many
>of us were taught. . . to make a reed with a core that would enable the
>tone to project with the richness needed in Brahms and Schumann but to
>be flexible enough to deal with Daphnis and Chloe and La Scala di Seta
>and be responsive enough so that one would still be alive at the end of
> a 10 to 13 service week.
>
>I'm . . .uh. . . .still working on it. . . .
>
>And I'd better get going. . . .
>
>Barbara
>
>Stephen Kaupiko wrote:
>
> > Just so my liking of Heinz isn't taking too out of
> > context these are my favorite oboists... in order of
> > how I'm feeling right now.
> >
> > I wonder what everyone else likes. It would be nice to
> > hear some new things.
> >
> > The list:
> >
> > Lajos Lences - Beautiful "singing" quality
> >
> > Ruth Bolister - Absolutley lovely "regal" sound.
> >
> > Pierre Pierlot - Simply floats on air with occaisional
> > unexpected breezes of heavenly bliss.
> >
> > Hansjorg Schellenberger - Sweet and lilting
> >
> > Christian Hommel - Like butter!
> >
> > Cynthia DeAlmeida - She's has a bit of reedy character
> > with a smidgen bit of that darkness. Very lovely
> > playing.
> >
> > Allan Vogel - Absolutley phenomenal, but sometimes
> > that dark quality gets in the way.
> >
> > Elaine Douvas - Very exressive and lyrical, but a bit
> > submerged (I think it's the recording though)
> >
> > Burkhard Glaetzner - Sweet, if a bit submerged.
> >
> > Heinz Holliger - Baroque personified. Paired with a
> > harpsichord his tone color rises to the occaision.
> >
> > ...left off the ones I didn't like, for lack of space.
> > (Kidding!) >;)
> >
> > Regards,
> > Stephen
> >
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2006 17:00:29 -0800
To: <doublereed@-----.org>
From: herb fawcett <herbgosia@-----.net>
Subject: Re: [DR-L] RE: Ray Still/Heinz Holliger... Favorites?
Message-ID: <C0093CAD.1089E%herbgosia@-----.net>
Geoff.
To address your first paragraph:
Just because it is a band instrument doesn't mean it has to sound like
one!
In the great years of the New York Wind Quintet, Garfield has told me
they
spent a great deal of time trying to determine how NOT to sound like the
stereotypical wind quintet. John Barrows, their hornist, did a
statistical
analysis of the difficult pairings, and intonation problems and other
things
that didn't work well. He wrote a book of exercises (that should sell
well)
which they worked on at every rehearsal session. It was in fact at one
of
those sessions that Sam Barber decided to write the Summer Music. The
apocryphal story goes: Sam heard all the very difficult things to do in
quintet and then wrote Summer Music to include all of them. Ha Ha.
I detest wind quintets, and prefer to play in groups which have some
pairings in them. Ours is a not a string quartet where the sounds are
all
complementary. It is a gathering of iconoclasts who have to learn to
"get
along" sonically.
I spent a lot of time in conservatory learning how NOT to play all picky
and
nasal just because it was easier on the instrument. How dry is a
bassoon! So
if we try to make a sound like a pizzicato, we have no resonance like a
cello to rely on; maybe we should be playing a tongued legato. After all
staccato doesn't mean ugly and nasty (quack), it just means separated.
Any
effort to make a musical instrument out of a band instrument is quite
commendable. (My apologies to colleagues in the UK where bands are still
considered music.) If our attempt to sound beautiful instead of
tweet-tweet,
and toot is what Europeans dislike about American wind playing, I am
delighted. We are doing our job better than I realized.
Best,
Herb
On 2/3/06 2:07 PM, "Geoff Pearce" <oboist2@-----.au> wrote:
> Interestingly enough, a lot of Non-US players dont warm to the
American
> sound because they find it too dark and unwieldy from a moderate
distance -
> Up close and in chamber music, I have frequently heard the adjective
> frying bacon" been expressed to descibe the buzzy sound one can often
hear,
> which is not evident from a distance but is frequently up close.
Many
> non-US players I think also have an issue that many US schooled
players tend
> to smooth out detached lines and make the tongue strokes longer and
this
> renders such passages "tongued" legato.
>
> I guess at the end of the day, like any discipline, every style or
school
> has its own preferences as to how things should be done. Personally
> although I have been taught fairly constantly in one school, I hope
that I
> can appreciate other ways of doing and thinking. I do not think I
sound
> like anyone from my school, but on saying that, I have a pretty firm
idea
> on what I want to sound like.
>
> One of the dangers of comparing schools is that we get saturated with
one
> sound, and then very often are either exposed to other sounds through
the
> recording media only (which, not to offend sound engineers in the
list) and
> that sounds quite different from hearing things live, when all sorts
of
> other forces come in to play. If we are exposed live, its often by
> visiting orchestras or chamber players, that we are infrequently
exposed to
> and that can mean an unconcious bias.
>
> All the best to you all
> Geoff Pearce (oboe)
> Sydney
>
> -------Original Message-------
>
> From: Barbara trautwein
> Date: 02/04/06 00:26:05
> To: doublereed@-----.org
> Subject: Re: [DR-L] RE: Ray Still/Heinz Holliger... Favorites?
>
> Parochial is the word! In my isolation, I have never heard OF, let
> Alone heard the playing of, many of the players listed below (except,
of
> Course, Allan Vogel and Elaine Douvas who both are wonderful).
>
> Shame on me!
>
> Stephen, not meaning to be picky but what do you mean when you say
Allan
> Vogel's "dark quality gets in the way"? In the way of what? His
> Musicality? Do you have trouble hearing that because his sound
detracts
> You? That was the problem I had when listening to the European players
> From the mid - 20th Century. I just couldn't get past what I had been
> Taught as being the "wrong" sound to even be able to sense musicality.
>
> I believe that the Americans felt that the depth of the dark sound
> Enabled a player to reach an intensity of musical expression which
> Didn't ring true with a lighter sound or one permeated with a buzzy
> Vibrato.
>
> I think that at the beginning of the 20th Century, the European
> Orchestras played repertoire related to their home bases: Parisian
> Groups played French music, Italian orchestras played Rossini and
> Vivaldi, Germanic groups played Brahms. American orchestras, on the
> Other hand, having virually NO repertoire of their own, had to play
> Everything, French, German, Italian, Czech etc., and in bigger halls.
> That, supposedly, was why Tabuteau devised the reed style and tone
> Concept that he did. . .so that he could address the entire repertoire
> And have it heard in all dynamic ranges in the the back of the big
> Auditoriums.
>
> I realize that this is pretty simplistic but I think this is what many
> Of us were taught. . . To make a reed with a core that would enable
the
> Tone to project with the richness needed in Brahms and Schumann but to
> Be flexible enough to deal with Daphnis and Chloe and La Scala di Seta
> And be responsive enough so that one would still be alive at the end
of
> A 10 to 13 service week.
>
> I'm . . .uh. . . .still working on it. . . .
>
> And I'd better get going. . . .
>
> Barbara
>
> Stephen Kaupiko wrote:
>
>> Just so my liking of Heinz isn't taking too out of
>> context these are my favorite oboists... In order of
>> how I'm feeling right now.
>>
>> I wonder what everyone else likes. It would be nice to
>> hear some new things.
>>
>> The list:
>>
>> Lajos Lences - Beautiful "singing" quality
>>
>> Ruth Bolister - Absolutley lovely "regal" sound.
>>
>> Pierre Pierlot - Simply floats on air with occaisional
>> unexpected breezes of heavenly bliss.
>>
>> Hansjorg Schellenberger - Sweet and lilting
>>
>> Christian Hommel - Like butter!
>>
>> Cynthia DeAlmeida - She's has a bit of reedy character
>> with a smidgen bit of that darkness. Very lovely
>> playing.
>>
>> Allan Vogel - Absolutley phenomenal, but sometimes
>> that dark quality gets in the way.
>>
>> Elaine Douvas - Very exressive and lyrical, but a bit
>> submerged (I think it's the recording though)
>>
>> Burkhard Glaetzner - Sweet, if a bit submerged.
>>
>> Heinz Holliger - Baroque personified. Paired with a
>> harpsichord his tone color rises to the occaision.
>>
>> ...left off the ones I didn't like, for lack of space.
>> (Kidding!) >;)
>>
>> Regards,
>> Stephen
>>
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------
>> THE WOODWIND.ORG ANNUAL DONATION DRIVE IS GOING ON NOW! VISIT
>> https://secure.donax-us.com/donation TO FIND OUT ALL THE FACTS!
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> For personal help: email doublereed-owner@-----.org
>> Doublereed is a service of Woodwind.Org, Inc. http://www.woodwind.org
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> THE WOODWIND.ORG ANNUAL DONATION DRIVE IS GOING ON NOW! VISIT
> https://secure.donax-us.com/donation TO FIND OUT ALL THE FACTS!
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> For personal help: email doublereed-owner@-----.org
> Doublereed is a service of Woodwind.Org, Inc. http://www.woodwind.org
>
> ----------------------------------------------------
> This message has been processed by Firetrust Benign.
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> THE WOODWIND.ORG ANNUAL DONATION DRIVE IS GOING ON NOW! VISIT
> https://secure.donax-us.com/donation TO FIND OUT ALL THE FACTS!
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> For personal help: email doublereed-owner@-----.org
> Doublereed is a service of Woodwind.Org, Inc. http://www.woodwind.org
>
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2006 17:14:19 -0800
To: <doublereed@-----.org>
From: herb fawcett <herbgosia@-----.net>
Subject: Re: [DR-L] Re: Ray Still/Heinz Holliger... Favorites?
Message-ID: <C0093FEB.108A3%herbgosia@-----.net>
Wai Kit,
On 2/3/06 2:29 PM, "Wai Kit Leung" <wkleung11@-----.com> wrote:
> Tabuteau changed his reed style not because he had to play all styles
of
> music (which he did of course), but to blend with the German bassoons.
In
> France he played with bassoonists on the French system, and a change
for a
> darker tone was required when he wanted to blend with his German
bassoon
> colleagues in the Philadelphia Orchestra.
Actually, he was not forced to change his sound, he finally was able to
play
with the sound he preferred because, in that lovely Academy with
musicians
who produced such a transparent sound quality, he didn't have to blow
his
brains out. Gone was the sound of the Continental band. Kincaid was from
the
French school of flute playing, as was Bonade on clarinet. The wind
section
pretty much defined the "American Sound". Yours is a hasty assumption,
and I
fear incorrect, that Tabuteau would have preferred to play in the
prevailing
French school of sound, but changed to accommodate the bassoons. He was
not
a terribly accommodating fellow in that regard.
Playing in the Philadelphia Academy is like being in Eden. Every sound
is
heard clearly, and one can play in that large orchestra as if it were
large
chamber music. You do not have to force the sound and you can play in
tune.
What more can you ask? I have listened to that orchestra from the very
cheap
seats for years, and you can easily hear a "mouse fart" while the
orchestra
is playing.
Best,
Herb
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 22:26:38 -0800 (PST)
To: doublereed@-----.org
From: Stephen Kaupiko <musicman@-----.net>
Subject: Re: [DR-L] RE: Ray Still/Heinz Holliger... Favorites?
Message-ID: <20060204062638.22787.qmail@-----.com>
Really, I've only heard the bulk of these wonderful
oboists in the last year or so and I've been playing
for oboe 9 years already... shame on me too. :)
I like Allan Vogel's playing a great deal, but his
tone is to an extreme dark side of oboe playing for my
ears and such darkness is not generally to my liking,
but his playing/musicality certainly makes up for
that.
I guess everyone hears something different and likes
certain things that may not be the reason others like
or dislikes them for.
I'm sure there are those who wonder... "what
darkness?", but lament on how bright some players are.
;)
Regards,
Stephen
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2006 23:11:08 -0800
To: <doublereed@-----.org>
From: herb fawcett <herbgosia@-----.net>
Subject: Re: [DR-L] RE: Ray Still/Heinz Holliger... Favorites?
Message-ID: <C009938C.108BA%herbgosia@-----.net>
Bright /dark; thin /fat; loud/ soft; expressive/ dull. Aren't these
all
comparatives. Define please ...
When I hear what I have heard called a thin, wheezy, emasculated sound
played on a very open and free blowing instrument, I wonder what it was
thqt
drove the performer to play that way, and it frequently came back to me
that
it was what he had to offer, and thank you for sharing it. He stuck his
neck
in the noose for long enough to play for us and expose himself to the
cruel
criticism of instant replay. They are wonderful and we should thank them
for
giving us that much of their valuable time.(except for a few bassoonists
who
have given a very distorted impression of what a bassoon is musically,
way
too frequently)
Sleep well,
Herb
On 2/3/06 10:26 PM, "Stephen Kaupiko" <musicman@-----.net> wrote:
> Really, I've only heard the bulk of these wonderful
> oboists in the last year or so and I've been playing
> for oboe 9 years already... shame on me too. :)
>
> I like Allan Vogel's playing a great deal, but his
> tone is to an extreme dark side of oboe playing for my
> ears and such darkness is not generally to my liking,
> but his playing/musicality certainly makes up for
> that.
>
> I guess everyone hears something different and likes
> certain things that may not be the reason others like
> or dislikes them for.
>
> I'm sure there are those who wonder... "what
> darkness?", but lament on how bright some players are.
> ;)
>
> Regards,
> Stephen
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> THE WOODWIND.ORG ANNUAL DONATION DRIVE IS GOING ON NOW! VISIT
> https://secure.donax-us.com/donation TO FIND OUT ALL THE FACTS!
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> For personal help: email doublereed-owner@-----.org
> Doublereed is a service of Woodwind.Org, Inc. http://www.woodwind.org
>
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2006 18:32:35 +1100 (AUS Eastern Standard Time)
To: <doublereed@-----.org>
From: "Geoff Pearce" <oboist2@-----.au>
Subject: Re: [DR-L] RE: Ray Still/Heinz Holliger... Favorites?
Message-Id: <43E45893.000004.02924@GEOFFS>
It really goes to show that beauty of sound (like any other beauty) is
in
the ear etc of the receiver. I think this sort of bears out what I
have
been trying to get at. We all have our own idea of what constitutes a
beautiful sound - what is too dark for some, would appear to be
lovely
and rounded, and likewise I have heard many superlatives given to
players
that I would really not care to willingly listen to.
Speaking as a non-US member of this room, I know that most of the
members
have grown up believing that this is the ideal, but please be
understanding
of those members who have grown up with a different ideal. I dont
believe
any one style is correct or should dominate, but rather that there is
an
appreciation for all. Respectfully, I do know of non US members who
have
left the fold of this great double reed list. because they believe that
if
you are not of the US school, then your opinions have no value.
Personally I have felt this occasionally, but generally, I have found
most
members are reasoably receptive to different ideas, and hope this will
continue in a world that today shows so much greed and intolerance.
This is the last I intend to offer on this subject (hoping that I have
neither offended or bored anyone) so wish you happy music making
Cheers
Geoff Pearce
-------Original Message-------
From: herb fawcett
Date: 02/04/06 17:11:08
To: doublereed@-----.org
Subject: Re: [DR-L] RE: Ray Still/Heinz Holliger... Favorites?
Bright /dark; thin /fat; loud/ soft; expressive/ dull. Aren't these all
Comparatives. Define please ...
When I hear what I have heard called a thin, wheezy, emasculated sound
Played on a very open and free blowing instrument, I wonder what it was
thqt
Drove the performer to play that way, and it frequently came back to me
that
It was what he had to offer, and thank you for sharing it. He stuck his
neck
In the noose for long enough to play for us and expose himself to the
cruel
Criticism of instant replay. They are wonderful and we should thank them
for
Giving us that much of their valuable time.(except for a few bassoonists
who
Have given a very distorted impression of what a bassoon is musically,
way
Too frequently)
Sleep well,
Herb
On 2/3/06 10:26 PM, "Stephen Kaupiko" <musicman@-----.net> wrote:
> Really, I've only heard the bulk of these wonderful
> oboists in the last year or so and I've been playing
> for oboe 9 years already... Shame on me too. :)
>
> I like Allan Vogel's playing a great deal, but his
> tone is to an extreme dark side of oboe playing for my
> ears and such darkness is not generally to my liking,
> but his playing/musicality certainly makes up for
> that.
>
> I guess everyone hears something different and likes
> certain things that may not be the reason others like
> or dislikes them for.
>
> I'm sure there are those who wonder... "what
> darkness?", but lament on how bright some players are.
> ;)
>
> Regards,
> Stephen
>
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2006 01:15:19 -0800 (PST)
To: doublereed@-----.org
From: Stephen Kaupiko <musicman@-----.net>
Subject: Re: [DR-L] RE: Ray Still/Heinz Holliger... Favorites?
Message-ID: <20060204091519.30109.qmail@-----.com>
Terms like light and dark are just common descriptors
that one hopes people have a similar feeling for... of
course if one doesn't think Allan Vogel is dark at all
my words fly out the window.
Maybe a food analogy...?
Allan Vogel's Steakhouse.
I generally prefer my steaks medium rare to medium at
most places I eat at, but Allan Vogel's Steakhouse
only serves well-done steaks (for health reasons?).
Now although the steak isn't cooked the way a I like
it at Allan Vogel's Steakhouse, the steaks there are
pretty good. I imagine they would be immensely more
enjoyable if they weren't so well done, but that's how
it's served.
I ultimately want a good steak and some places do
serve medium steaks and I do immensely enjoy them
when they turn out well, but some places just can't
seem to make a good steak at all. At least I know what
I can expect a good, but too well done steak at Allans
steakhouse, but it's something I'm willing to live
with. It's a good steak.
(In real life though... I'm not a fan of steaks at
all)
Regards,
Stephen
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2006 16:40:55 -0800
To: <doublereed@-----.org>
From: herb fawcett <herbgosia@-----.net>
Subject: Re: [DR-L] Re: Ray Still/Heinz Holliger
Message-ID: <C0093817.10899%herbgosia@-----.net>
It does not follow that a fine player is necessarily a great teacher.
One
of the renowned teachers was Simon Kovar, the teacher of Schoenbach,
Sharrow, Maxym, Herzberg, Garfield etc etc. He was a violinist who
converted
to bassoon and was adequate for the NY Phil in those days, but he
apparently
knew how to get people to play the bassoon. Sol Schoenbach told me that
one
of his valued teachers was Daniel Bonade, a clarinetist.
I think a more productive approach in selecting a teacher would be to
listen
to his/her students and then decide. Knowing a bit more about Dave
McGill
than just how he plays, which is perfectly delicious, I would choose him
as
a teacher easily. Pity though, I hear he doesn't teach. If I had free
choice
in such a matter I would seek Richard Ranti in Boston, or I would see if
Matt Ruggiero still teaches. A lot depends on Geography. Is Arthur
Weisberg
near you. He is a superb player who also thinks and can explain the
ineffable. I don't know if he can teach, but I would be pleased to be
accused of sounding like Milan Turkovic.
Herb
On 2/3/06 12:06 PM, "Geoff Rousell" <bassoon@-----.uk>
wrote:
> Well I have to say it has been refreshing to have a topic that has
> generated such a level of discussion on the list!
>
> It has reminded me of the words of my last bassoon teacher at school.
As
> I was leaving school to go on to university he said that he had
probably
> come to the end of what he could teach me for the time being. His
> recommendation was to listen to a lot of bassoon players, and when I
> HEARD one that I liked the sound of, go to him/her for lessons.
>
> Here I am, over 25 years later, and I'm still waiting! Actually of
> course I love some aspect of nearly every bassoonist's playing, but I
> often felt that to some extent a bassoonist has to be a "sonic
> chameleon". Since you form the bass of the woodwind ensemble most of
the
> time you cannot be too strident, but when you do have those moments of
> solo you have to change so that the distinctive sound of the
instrument
> can be heard above the hubbub. Therefore there is no "right" sound,
just
> "right in this ensemble" sound. My opportunities as outright soloist
> have been few enough that I have not really attained (to my ear, at
any
> rate) a distinctive sound, but my beloved Fox does seem to blend as
the
> occasion requires...
>
> Geoff
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> THE WOODWIND.ORG ANNUAL DONATION DRIVE IS GOING ON NOW! VISIT
> https://secure.donax-us.com/donation TO FIND OUT ALL THE FACTS!
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2006 17:17:03 -0800
To: <doublereed@-----.org>
From: herb fawcett <herbgosia@-----.net>
Subject: Re: [DR-L] Re: Ray Still/Heinz Holliger
Message-ID: <C009408F.108A4%herbgosia@-----.net>
Geoff,
In my experience, it is rare that the bassoon has to work hard to be the
chameleon, to blend well. Alas, the bassoon is such a gregarious fellow
that
he wishes to blend with any and everything; the big challenge is usually
to
wade through the mud and be heard.
Herb
On 2/3/06 12:06 PM, "Geoff Rousell" <bassoon@-----.uk>
wrote:
> Well I have to say it has been refreshing to have a topic that has
> generated such a level of discussion on the list!
>
> It has reminded me of the words of my last bassoon teacher at school.
As
> I was leaving school to go on to university he said that he had
probably
> come to the end of what he could teach me for the time being. His
> recommendation was to listen to a lot of bassoon players, and when I
> HEARD one that I liked the sound of, go to him/her for lessons.
>
> Here I am, over 25 years later, and I'm still waiting! Actually of
> course I love some aspect of nearly every bassoonist's playing, but I
> often felt that to some extent a bassoonist has to be a "sonic
> chameleon". Since you form the bass of the woodwind ensemble most of
the
> time you cannot be too strident, but when you do have those moments of
> solo you have to change so that the distinctive sound of the
instrument
> can be heard above the hubbub. Therefore there is no "right" sound,
just
> "right in this ensemble" sound. My opportunities as outright soloist
> have been few enough that I have not really attained (to my ear, at
any
> rate) a distinctive sound, but my beloved Fox does seem to blend as
the
> occasion requires...
>
> Geoff
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> THE WOODWIND.ORG ANNUAL DONATION DRIVE IS GOING ON NOW! VISIT
> https://secure.donax-us.com/donation TO FIND OUT ALL THE FACTS!
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> For personal help: email doublereed-owner@-----.org
> Doublereed is a service of Woodwind.Org, Inc. http://www.woodwind.org
>
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 21:20:35 EST
To: doublereed@-----.org
From: Oboeeee@-----.com
Subject: [DR-L] Quote of the Day
Message-ID: <fc.2458f15c.31156973@-----.com>
"Asking a critic to name his favorite book is like asking a butcher to
name=
=20
his favorite pig.=E2=80=9D =20
-John McCarthy (1927) American computer scientist, Professor Emeritus at
=20
Stanford University
------------------------------
End of doublereed Digest
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