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Doublereed Archive - Posting 000089.txt from 2006/01
From: "Geoff Pearce" <oboist2@-----.au>
Subj: Re: [DR-L] Tinny-Ness of gramophones
Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 06:08:48 -0500
Interestingly enough, I have heard the same thing directed at many Asian
musicians - Cant say I agree, I have heard and seen many inspired
performances by musicians from all over the world. Often if we dont
understand something, we dismiss it with negative statements, whether it
be music or something else....often I have heard a performance being
described as unmusical, when all it is, is against the current trend, and
others would hail the performance as revolutionary, and then in a few years
it may become "standard". The performances and performers I like least
are the ones where I am not enlightened, dont hear anything new, or the
performer, for example who plays a work the same way every time, every
concert or every recording, and there are plenty of those around.
I want to be challenged, inspired, enlightened, and those are the
performances, ones that sound so sponaneous, that you can almost see the
composer's spirit on it, that are etched in the memory.
Cheers
Geoff Pearce
Sydney, Australia, Oboe
-------Original Message-------
From: herb fawcett
Date: 01/31/06 04:39:38
To: doublereed@-----.org
Subject: Re: [DR-L] Tinny-Ness of gramophones
Geoff,
On the rare occasions while growing up, when I was in the live presence of
Continental musicians, it was often said that Americans played
Unexpressively. Frequently this speech was delivered with the same level of
Vehemence as we can experience now in Germany or France when discussing
American foreign policy.
They were, of course, referring to two things; one was our restrained
(comparatively) vibrato, and the fact that we didn't move a lot while
Playing. My teacher, Sol Schoenbach, suggested that I "dance inside" once
When he became upset with the choreography I had brought with me from high
School. Now I hardly move when playing (seat strap doesn't encourage) even
When standing. No one complains of my lack of expression (sometimes my
Pitch!), and I do find it very disconcerting when oboist or flutists dance
All over the stage. Somehow the fine clarinet soloist, Richard Stolzman,
Integrates his movement so well that it almost seems a necessary part of the
Music. I have seen him walk over to a section that has an important part at
The time and play with them rather than stand by the conductor.
Best,
Herb
On 1/30/06 1:48 AM, "Geoff Pearce" <oboist2@-----.au> wrote:
> One of the sad things, from my point of view growing up in a fairly poor
> family, was that a lot or recordings were outside my reach, and especially
> US recordings were rather difficult to get, so many of the oboists you
guys
> grew up with, I never got to hear - and nothing beats hearing a good
> oboist live. Its sad that so many people are intolerant about other styles
> but I guess that's inherent in human nature, but the thing is, when we
> can and do realise the value of other styles and sounds, then it can be
> relevationary, and I am sure that there are many great players and styles
I
> still have yet to discover. I have noted of late some lovely sounds coming
> out of Scandinavia. We also have a great young lady here called Diana
> Doherty - beautiful sound and so musical, but why oh why do so many
> oboists - and many other musicians have to throw themselves around. I
> don't know if anyone else notices, but it sort of "chews" the sound (I don
t
> know how else to describe it), and can be so visually off putting that one
> has to close ones eyes.
>
> I don't suggest that one stands and plays as a statue might, but the
> exaggerated movements frequently displayed are a tad disturbing.
>
> Happy playing and listening folks
> Geoff Pearce
> Oboe
> Sydney, Australia
>
> -------Original Message-------
>
> From: Barbara trautwein
> Date: 01/29/06 23:59:14
> To: doublereed@-----.org
> Subject: Re: [DR-L] Tinny-Ness of gramophones
>
> Dear Geoff (and Herb!),
>
> Your messages are coming loud and clear and this particular dialogue has
> Been wonderful to read!
>
> I was taught by first and second generation Tabuteau students and so was
> Completely intolerant of any other "school" of oboe playing. My
> Violinist husband bought me a Goosens recording of something and I just
> Couldn't listen to it. I couldn't get to the musicality because I
> Couldn't get past the sound. How dumb! He was able to identify artist
> Violinists by their sounds but he was much more mature than I, embracing
> Each for their strengths even if their sounds weren't to his taste. I
> Think he says the same thing about the modern players . . .that they are
> Amazing fiddlers but that they are hard to distinguish, one from another.
>
> When I was in college, I got to turn pages for the pianist who
> Accompanied Reginald Kell when he played a recital at my school. Again,
> As someone who played clarinet before I played the oboe, I had trouble
> Listening to the vibrato but I did manage to appreciate his artistry.
>
> Now, let me tell you about my four seasons as a Cleveland Orchestra
> Subscriber when I heard Marc Lifschey play EVERY Saturday night. . . .
> .There are some players that when you hear them, you might be inspired
> To take your oboe and break it over your knee. When I heard Lifschey, I
> Would race home, get out the oboe and try to figure out HOW he had done
> That magical phrase!. . . .sigh. . . .
>
> Right! MORE dialogue! MORE "thoughts and experiences" !
>
> 2 cents,
>
> Barbara
>
> Geoff Pearce wrote:
>>
>> Thanks for the reply and thoughts Herb. This is one of the things this
>> list should be fostering, sharing of thoughts and experiences and be as
>> free from prejudices and dogma as it can be.
>>
>> Someone may be able to help me here. I only get the replies from Herb,
>> but do not see my messages in my own emails as coming from the list. Must
>> I configure things differently?
>>
>> Cheers
>> Geoff Pearce (Resident in Sydney, Australia)
>> But of New Zealand origin
>>
>> -------Original Message-------
>>
>> From: herb fawcett
>> Date: 01/29/06 19:08:46
>> To: doublereed@-----.org
>> Subject: Re: [DR-L] re: tinny-ness of gramophones
>>
>> Geoff,
>> The level of performance has risen to a level where it is almost
> frightening
>> To reflect on my own inadequacies. Bassoon students play pieces that I
was
>
>> Fairly well convinced were unplayable. And bassoonists continue to expand
>> Their range into the EH notes. F? G#? Indeed! In my earlier note I
> neglected
>> To mention one of my favorites (because he is contemporary) Maurice
Allard
>
>> An absolute wizard who probably could have made lovely music on a
>> Didgeridoo. No fagot/basson quarrel could stand up to that music making.
>>
>> Tabuteau certainly was not best shown in Handel(for my taste) as his
>> Phrasing was so rational(and predictable) in that genre. I remember his
>> Asking a student in wind class after the student's response to the
> question
>> "why did you play that in that way?" was - "that is the way I felt it." M
>
>> Tab asked (with heavy laid on French accent) how would you play it if you
>> Had a bad cold and felt like sheet? That season he told a
> student/colleague
>> Of mine "if music were your language, you would be mute!" A sometimes
> harsh
>> Man with huge insecurities. Some of his students would vomit before
> lessons.
>>
>> In Philadelphia I had the great fortune to spend many happy hours playing
>> With Al Genovese who was not only a superb talent, but who spent endless
>> Hours studying scores so that he knew just which part of the whole his
> part
>> Was. Every note he played was relevant. For me, a wonderful example.
>>
>> In every practical endeavor, we have unfortunately sold our souls to
>> "getting" and "having". We truly need little more than Thoreau advocated,
>> And we insist on grasping at "who knows what?" Bigger houses, bigger cars
>
>> More money! I fear that many of us in music do not understand what a
prize
>
>> We have been given, to have the privilege to join others in the
> realization
>> Of transcendent beauty bestowed on us by the genius that went before us.
>> Music takes me to places where the bus doesn't go.
>>
>> Thanks for the note; take care of your lovely islands.
>> Best to you,
>> Herb
>>
>>
>> On 1/29/06 12:34 AM, "Geoff Pearce" <oboist2@-----.au> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Yes that's so true about Kell, was a magic player. Now about the
>>
>> European
>>
>>> style oboes - I guess its acquired taste, the first time I heard
>>
>> Tabuteau
>>
>>> (on the 1st Chair Philadelphia album where he was playing the Handel G
>>> minor concerto), I thought Yuk!! - because it was not the sound I was
>>> bought up on, and the phrasing lay like large planks of wood - well
>>
>> that
>>
>>> was to my ears at the time. Later on we had some influential oboists
>>
>> from
>>
>>> the US working in my country (NZ) largely, Hiro Kuwashima (tragically
>>> killed in a road accident aged 26 or 27) then De Vere Moore, Theodore
>>> Baskin, and in later years, John Snow.
>>>
>>> My point is, without hearing these guys live and seeing their
musicianship
>
>>> in so many different forms, I might never have got to appreciate the
type
>>> of sound that is favoured in the US.
>>>
>>> I havent played for a while, but when I do, I like to imagine favoured
>>> players depending on what I am playing - i.e. Karl Stein for Mozart,
>>
>> Jiri
>>
>>> Tancibudek for central European or French Music, Goossens for many of
the
>>> English composers, especially the "pastoral School" and De Vere Moore
>>
>> for
>>
>>> Richard Strauss, Bruckner, and always not out of site is Ray Still and
>>> Robert Bloom. That's the way it goes. I don't sound like any of them,
>>
>> but
>>
>>> I think the sound and style tends to help mine if I can auralise it.
>>>
>>> Yes style ( or in some cases, the lack of it) is personal, but likewise
>>
>> I
>>
>>> abhor the homogeneity of sound - one used to be able to pick the
>>
>> orchestra
>>
>>> by the sound of the wind players (particularly oboists he sez with a
>>
>> little
>>
>>> bias), and it was fun where where were 2 principals in a section (as in
>>
>> the
>>
>>> Berlin Phil) and it was great fun trying to pick who it was playing -
>>> really made one listen.
>>>
>>> Guess I am being nostalgic, and on saying that, there are some fabulous
>>> performers around today. The over all standard is incredible, but have
>>
>> we
>>
>>> sold our souls?
>>>
>>> Geoff Pearce
>>> Oboe
>>> Sydney
>>>
>>> -------Original Message-------
>>>
>>> From: herb fawcett
>>> Date: 01/29/06 17:44:53
>>> To: doublereed@-----.org
>>> Subject: Re: [DR-L] re: tinny-ness of gramophones
>>>
>>> I really love Archie Camden's K191 as I do Oubradous' K191 and the
>>
>> spurious
>>
>>> #2. Even modern cleaned up CDs don't get rid of the junk on those old
>>> Recordings. I used to have an LP that had some stuff on it that was done
>>
>> by
>>
>>> Kell when he was here for a while. Wow, what an influential clarinetist.
>>> Never could get around the European oboe style,especially the English
and
>>> The Dutch. I guess I was "Labate and Tabuteau-washed". Now there is such
a
>
>>> Homogeneity of sound in all the instruments. A pity in a way.
Fortunately
>>> Style remains quite personal.
>>> Best,
>>> Herb
>>>
>>>
>>> On 1/28/06 11:26 PM, "Geoff Pearce" <oboist2@-----.au> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Well I had one - actually I believe that a company in India is still
>>>> making them. I had a few hundred 78 records to go with it, including
the
>>>> Mozart oboe Quartet (Leon Goossens), Clarinet Quintet (Reginald Kell)
and
>
>>>> Bassoon Concerto (Archie Camden) - They were just some of the great
>>>> recordings I had - sounded fantastic on the old gramophone, especially
if
>
>>>> you sat back a little. Some recordings, just like today, were better
>>>> than others, but in interpretation, but also surface noise. I only hope
>>>> that more are released in CD, BUT - there was an atmosphere all of its
>>>> own on gramophone.
>>>>
>>>> I listen to a lot of modern recordings, a great deal of scholarship,
and
>>>> my God, what technique - but sometimes there is a decided lack of soul
or
>
>>>> true "atmosphere"
>>>>
>>>> Geoff Pearce
>>>> Oboe
>>>> Sydney
>>>>
>>>> -------Original Message-------
>>>>
>>>> From: herb fawcett
>>>> Date: 01/29/06 17:19:58
>>>> To: doublereed@-----.org
>>>> Subject: Re: [DR-L] re: tinny-ness of gramophones
>>>>
>>>> We had one where you could use either the steel needle or one adapted
>>
>> from
>>
>>> a
>>>
>>>> Cactus needle. Wish I still had it. That and the ice box which used a
>>>
>>> block
>>>
>>>> Of ice, and a wet rag covered the butter.
>>>> Herb
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 1/28/06 10:36 PM, "john vasko" <boanerges@-----.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Keith,
>>>>> have you ever seen or listened to a real old Gramaphone (brand name),
>>>>> the kind one had to wind up, with the needle attached to a small
>>>>> diaphragm
>>>>> from which the sound emanated? I used to have one. It was somewhat
>>>>> tinny and false of tone.
>>>>> I'm sure you did not make your recording with such a device.
>>>>> John Vasko
>>>>>
>>>>> On Jan 28, 2006, at 7:11 PM, Keith Sklower wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Though I agree with the overall sentiment of Shaw's poem,
>>>>>> the lines:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> }I have listened to music from a gramophone,
>>>>>> }It is somewhat tinny and false in tone.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> are fighting words to a recording engineer!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I made a recording of a live chamber music concert a couple or 3
years
>>>>>> ago of 2 Oboe and English Horn music that was accurate enough that
>>>>>> Yvgeny Izotov gave a copy to his former teacher Ralph Gomberg,
>>>>>> and San Francisco Symphony English Hornist Julie Giaccobassi's
husband
>>>>>> has been trying to persuade her to release it ...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Keith L. Sklower
>>>>>>
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