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Doublereed Archive - Posting 000044.txt from 2006/01

From: herb fawcett <herbgosia@-----.net>
Subj: Re: [DR-L] Single tongueing (Bassoon)
Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 21:46:59 -0500

Hi,
One of the things my main teacher taught me was to mentally disconnect the
jaw muscle from the tongue. Bassoon is the only reed instrument where I
observe the jaw bobbing along as notes are articulated. If a clarinetist did
this it would sound awful. Once the disconnect is made, there is the chance
that the wind can be used properly and the tongue can just merrily bounce
along. That said, another very fine bassoonist once told me that what really
matters is the music, not blind adherence to the markings which may or may
not be the intentions of the composer anyway. Like you, I wonder which I
would rather hear, a beautifully and tastefully played passage with
articulations different from written or a botched mess of poorly applied
double tongue and/or the worse mess that a failed single tongue will
produce. Of course there are those naked moments like Beethoven's #4 where
es muss sein, even if the clarinetist is forgiven from the rigor.
Yours, for a rational conductor,
Herb

On 1/23/06 5:51 PM, "Isaac Bull" <contrareed@-----.ca> wrote:

> Hi Tim and thanks for your post
>
> Tonguing speeds among wind players in general vary - some players are
> blessed with the talent to be able to single tongue like the wind. Others
> have naturally slower single tongues and tend to want to learn to double
> tongue, sort of a branch out to another topic...
>
> Unless you are faced with opposition in your section and/or conductor to
> sluring some notes (which I expect would be rare) I suggest there is
> nothing wrong with this at all - in fact far better than attempting to
> tongue the whole thing and making a mess of it - cleaner is better and if
> adding a slur or two helps go for it.
>
> One thing I believe to be true and maybe this might promote some more
> feedback from the list, is that most people can tongue a lot faster than
> they think they can....
>
> The keys to success are:
>
> 1. Support - low or no air support (abdominal muscles etc.) truly hamper
> your tonguing ability and produce sluggish results. Always be aware and
> provide as much support as possible for fast tongued passages - this will
> add more speed and confidence as you practice it. Try and focus on getting
> as firm as you can in the diaphragm / abdominal area.
>
> 2. use less reed - remember the reed is a valve and articulation is effected
> when the vibrating reed is interrupted by the tongue. You only need a tiny
> amount to be effective. Too much tongue will get in the way.
>
> Of course it also goes without saying that a lot of building up speed is
> from gaining confidence so start slower - you've got 80 - try starting at 72
> and then increasing in small increments using a metronome - using varied
> rhythms (dotted etc.) to give some variety.
>
> I know some may think that bassoons aren't heard and it's not worth the
> effort but if IMHO you can play this kind of passage with confidence it
> makes a very big difference in the average Beethoven size orchestra.
> Bassoons are a big boost to the cello / bass sound and a nice added colour.
>
> To answer your initial question - 120 to the crotchet would seem reasonable
> for an "average" player with some practice and focusing on the points I've
> talked about.
>
> Hope this is helpful.
>
> Best wishes to all,
>
> Isaac Bull,
> Bassoon/contrabassoon
> Freelance - Vancouver, B.C.
> and legal assistant :)
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Tim Hunt" <tim@-----.uk>
> To: <doublereed@-----.org>
> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 2:48 PM
> Subject: [DR-L] Single tongueing (Bassoon)
>
>
>> How fast should a typical player be able to manage?
>>
>> I know: what is a typical player?
>>
>> Anyway, I (amateur player) am currently grappling with the 3rd movement
>> of Beethoven's 3rd Piano concerto. There are a couple of longish
>> passages of tongued semi-quavers that need to go at about 120 crotchets
>> per minute.
>>
>> So far I can to about 80 crotchets per minute. That's quite a lot slower.
>>
>> What exercises can one do to speed up?
>>
>> Actually, I am no longer very concerned about this, I found some
>> recordings, and the bassoon seems to be drowned out by the strings in
>> those parts anyway, so probably no one will notice if I slur them.
>>
>> Tim.
>>
>>
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>>
>
>
>
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