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Doublereed Archive - Posting 000039.txt from 2003/05

From: Rhondda May <rmay@-----.com>
Subj: Re: [DR-L] opening throat, or not
Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 07:59:34 -0400

Regarding "focusing the air"-

It's like an airplane that must achieve a certain speed in order to take
off.
There's a basic speed the air has to move at in order for the reed to
vibrate.

If you have a really soft reed, it will vibrate readily, too soft and
your blowing will simply collapse the reed.

You are blowing the air so that if you put your hand in front of your
mouth the air is cold, not warm, like you're blowing out birthday
candles, or blowing a balloon away.

Focusing the air means manipulating the openning of the reed so that the
air goes nice and fast, vibrating all the parts of the reed and getting
the heck out of your body. You do this with your mouth and the added
weight of your left hand on the oboe. The smaller the aperture, the
faster the air will move, if you keep the pressure (blowing) constant.
As you go up a scale, the pitch will be flat if you don't close the
opening of the reed and keep your blowing constant. (The alternatives
are to add an embouchure, by doing something in your throat, or to allow
the reed to slide into your mouth.) If you don't open as you go down
into the depths of the range (or let the reed come out slightly, or let
go your throat), nothing will speak.

So the given is you have to start with an open but flexible reed.

Mr. Dlouhy is right about having the sound you want in your ear and then
make the oboe match it.

Best to all.

David Lurie wrote:
>
> At 09:08 PM 5/4/2003 +0800, you wrote:
> >David and all,
> >
> >Encouraged by your comment that it's a good discussion, I will risk
> >jumping in here.
>
> Good, and I assure you there's very little risk. Besides, you made some
> good points.
>
> >It is possible to play with a vibrant, ringing, in-tune sound without
> >using the throat AND without a hard reed.
>
> I agree, and of course hardness in reeds is a very relative thing.
>
> > You do have to use your
> >embouchure to regulate the opening of the reed, and at the same time
> >focus the airspeed, and you do have to have an open reed that is soft
> >enough at the tip for your to close with your mouth.
>
> The one thing I don't understand here is what exactly does "...focus the
> airspeed..." mean? I have heard the expression "airspeed" before but never
> knew what it meant. If you blow harder then I suppose the air goes through
> faster, but is this what's meant by that phrase?
>
> >I learned this from Sara Lambert Bloom, who learned it from Robert
> >Bloom. Part of the theory behind it is that if you play on a closed
> >reed, or a reed that is too hard to control with your embouchure, you
> >will allow your throat to act as an embouchure (to my students I
> >describe it as the throat really wanting to help out and just getting
> >involved on its own, which is closer to how I think it really works,
> >given all that has been said about what one can and cannot make the
> >throat do). If your reed is soft and open, you can control it with your
> >mouth (OK, I'll just come out and say it: YOUR JAW), by balancing the
> >reed and using the weight of the left hand to help. Mr. Bloom used to
> >use the term "lead pipe" to describe the invlovement of the thoat - that
> >is, none at all.
>
> Interesting. I studied with Robert Sprenkle who I believe studied with
> Bloom, so we are probably talking about the same thing here.
>
> David Lurie
>
> >The synthesis of my contribution to this discussion with all the
> >interesting things that have already been said might be thus: it's a
> >matter of balance - strength/ openness/ manipulativeness of the reed,
> >use of the jaw, involvement, or not, of the throat, evenness, or not, of
> >the blowing pressure.
> >
> >cheers,
> >Rhondda May
> >Hong Kong
> >
> >
> >
> >David Lurie wrote:
> > >
> > > At 09:26 AM 5/3/2003 -0600, you wrote:
> > > >My student's challenge was that the "throat" itself would not
> > > >actually influence the air stream. We discussed it for a while,
> > > >and I've been keeping him up to speed on all your thought. We've
> > > >tentatively come to the conclusion together that using that term
> > > >accomplishes two things:
> > > >1) Relaxes the muscles in the throat, and although that probably
> > > >doesn't influence the air directly, it will affect the quality of
> > > >sound by relaxing other things as well (my brass player husband
> > > >feels that trying to play with an "open throat" loosens the
> > > >tension from throat to lips). I'm still experimenting on this
> > > >one... it doesn't seem logical to me that the muscles of the
> > > >throat influence the air inside the trachea, but there is a
> > > >difference in sound, so it has to be influencing something.
> > >
> > > There is an inherent problem here about "relaxing the throat". I will try
> > > to keep this short by saying that playing the oboe is an inherently
> > > unnatural thing to do. You use all sorts of muscles that you would not use
> > > otherwise than if you weren't playing it. So that in itself is not natural.
> > > Then to play the instrument, it is not either desirable of natural to be
> > > relaxed. there is a great deal of stress just to blow the thing, and to
> > > blow so much air between the blades of a tiny opening such as is found in
> > > an oboe reed - which causes the apparently absurd situation where after
> > > playing a passage, you are not out of breath at all but instead you have
> > > too much stale air left in your lungs that you must expel before even being
> > > able to take another breath. In any case, playing a brass instrument does
> > > not pose the same problems, since there is hardly any resistance at all.
> > > Playing the oboe requires a fairly strong resistance, which, if the reed is
> > > resistant enough, would override any tendency to close the throat. IOW, it
> > > would maintain the throat in an open position (desirable).
> > >
> > > >2) Lowers the back of the tongue and raises the soft pallet...
> > > >which allows greater air flow and control. This is what happens
> > > >in a yawn, this is what singers are harping about all the time.
> > > >This produces a noticeable difference in sound (and can also
> > > >loosen the embouchure in a student who's clamping).
> > >
> > > Again, comparison of singing with playing the oboe is not applicable, just
> > > because the mechanics of sound production with a reed are so utterly
> > > different from having no resistance whatsoever for the spoken voice.
> > >
> > > >My physician student told me that the trachea is not a flexible
> > > >track (it can go up and down like an accordian, but not in and
> > > >out). If I push on mine from the outside, it seems pretty hard
> > > >and doesn't move. But you can make it voluntarily longer or
> > > >shorter. The vocal chords concept is interesting, but I learned
> > > >while singing that when you're not making noise the vocal chords
> > > >are open and relaxed. I'm not sure if you can close and open them
> > > >slightly while not making noise... I'm going to do some research
> > > >on that.
> > >
> > > Here again, the vocal chords play no role at all in sound production. There
> > > is an excercize I learned as a student, which involves playing on a fairly
> > > resistant reed, and then allowing the vocal chords to vibrate producing a
> > > guttural sound while trying to keep the sound of the oboe going steadily.
> > > This is not at all easy to do, but if you can do it, it is evidence that
> > > you have indeed maintained the throat as open as possible.
> > >
> > > >Thanks everyone for your opinions! This kind of debate is fun for
> > > >me (I'm sure quite a few people are finding it boring). Love this
> > > >list!
> > >
> > > I agree, this is a good discussion going on here.
> > >
> > > David Lurie
> > >
> > > >Beth
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
> > > >From: David Lurie <david.lurie@-----.net>
> > > >Reply-To: doublereed-l@-----.edu
> > > >Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 11:53:50 -0400
> > > >
> > > > >At 03:00 PM 5/1/2003 -0600, you wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >>I have to jump in here. Could someone explain the physical
> > > >properties
> > > > >>behind an open throat ? The trachea can t actual expand and
> > > >contract can
> > > > >>it? And moving all the other stuff in the throat (swelling of
> > > >the neck,
> > > > >>etc.) shouldn t affect the air stream any, or does it?
> > > > >
> > > > >Without getting into the detailed anatomy of this, which I am
> > > >incompetent
> > > > >to do in any case, it is easy to see "all the other stuff" that
> > > >you refer
> > > > >to move even if you only do something so simple as to blow on a
> > > >reed. If
> > > > >you blow hard enough on the reed, you can observe the outside of
> > > >the neck
> > > > >physically swelling to a larger size. The importance of this is
> > > >that it
> > > > >makes a difference to playing music on the oboe if the air stream
> > > >is
> > > > >altered by the neck/throat changing size during playing. This can
> > > >be heard
> > > > >if you listen carefully enough. The effect is one of
> > > >inconsistency in the
> > > > >musical line. Having a reed that is sufficiently resistant is one
> > > >of
> > > > >several steps that can be taken to solving this problem.
> > > > >
> > > > >> I understand how the mouth would affect things, and perhaps
> > > >the opening
> > > > >> of the throat at the point where it connects to the mouth (I
> > > >don t know
> > > > >> if that can be controlled voluntarily or not).
> > > > >
> > > > >IMO, there may be a little - but very little - voluntary control
> > > >over it.
> > > > >
> > > > >> What actually opens or closes , and does the swelling of the
> > > >neck
> > > > >> actually affect the air? I ve used the term open your throat
> > > >myself for
> > > > >> a long time, but one of my students (a physician, actually),
> > > >challenged
> > > > >> me on it recently. I promised to do some research, and this is
> > > >a good
> > > > >> opportunity. Any answers?
> > > > >
> > > > >I would like to know what was your student's challenge?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >David Lurie
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>-----Original Message-----
> > > > >>From: doublereed-l-admin@-----.edu
> > > > >>[mailto:doublereed-l-admin@-----.edu] On Behalf Of David
> > > >Lurie
> > > > >>Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2003 1:27 PM
> > > > >>To: doublereed-l@-----.edu
> > > > >>Subject: Re: [DR-L] opening throat upper register oboe
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>I would like to add my 2 cents here. this subject has come up
> > > >before, but
> > > > >>I don't recall any resolution to it, and there probably is no
> > > >resolution
> > > > >>to it as long as different system of playing are used. What you
> > > >describe I
> > > > >>believe is one of the basic differences between one of the
> > > >European
> > > > >>systems and the American system of oboe playing. So of course
> > > >there are
> > > > >>going to be some fundamental factors involved here. I will speak
> > > >about
> > > > >>what I learned in the American system, in which the throat must
> > > >be as open
> > > > >>as possible at all times. This allows the production of a
> > > >ringing vibrant
> > > > >>tone quality that is well supported and which sounds solid. In
> > > >order to
> > > > >>accomplish this, there must be sufficient resistance in the reed
> > > >so that
> > > > >>when you blow, it forces the tissues in the throat to remain in
> > > >an open
> > > > >>position. IOW, a fairly resistant reed is required, to prevent
> > > >any
> > > > >>activity in the throat - muscles which could only cause it to
> > > >close and
> > > > >>which would interfere with the production of an open sound. The
> > > >muscles in
> > > > >>that area of the body are under very little voluntary control,
> > > >so there's
> > > > >>not much that can be done with them except to interfere with
> > > >column of air
> > > > >>by closing it down. When this happens - with a less resistant
> > > >reed - it
> > > > >>is possible to produce a throat vibrato, although that
> > > >represents an
> > > > >>interference with the sound, not an integral part of it, which
> > > >the vibrato
> > > > >>should be. Vibrato is of course a separate although closely
> > > >related subject.
> > > > >>
> > > > >>In this system, the reed should allow the use of a full column
> > > >of air and
> > > > >>a feeling of something fairly substantial to push against when
> > > >blowing. If
> > > > >>it is done correctly, this will cause the outside of the neck to
> > > >enlarge
> > > > >>and be visibly larger. The neck should stay that way during the
> > > >entire
> > > > >>time the instrument is being played - and constitutes proof that
> > > >the
> > > > >>throat is really fully open. In this system, if the neck/throat
> > > > >>combination is used to modify the sound, then it will have a
> > > >definite
> > > > >>affect on the tone quality - in my opinion a negative one.
> > > > >>
> > > > >>David Lurie
> > > > >>
> > > > >>At 06:22 AM 5/1/2003 -0700, you wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >>Dear oboists,
> > > > >>
> > > > >>I'm a little confused about the opening of the throat while
> > > >oboe playing.
> > > > >>My teacher -whom I adore and is really very good!!!- took
> > > >lessons with T.
> > > > >>Indermuhle and M. Bourgue and he teached me an exercise to
> > > >create a
> > > > >>brilliant tone in the upper register: just take you're reed out
> > > >of your
> > > > >>instrument and blow a c on it (not crowing, but playing). Then,
> > > >by
> > > > >>changing only the opening of you're throat (making it smaller)
> > > >move on to
> > > > >>a cis and d without changing the lippressure!! Then play on the
> > > > >>instrument the upper register with the narrow opening and the
> > > >lower
> > > > >>register with a more open throat. My big problem however is dat
> > > >when I
> > > > >>"close" my throat to play the notes in te upper register with
> > > >more
> > > > >>brilliance and energy, the pitch is much too high. My teacher
> > > >says this is
> > > > >>because my lip pressure is maybe to high, but when I play a high
> > > >c and I
> > > > >>don't change my lips and only the opening in my throat,its pitch
> > > >is
> > > > >>ascending too!!(and this is only a logical result o! f the
> > > >exercise I
> > > > >>think, since the pitch is also rising while making the opening
> > > >in you're
> > > > >>throat smaller when playing on the reed alone)
> > > > >>In panic I consulted the internet about this subject and I did
> > > >find an
> > > > >>interesting article about it:
> > > > >><http://www.idrs.org/publications/Journal/JNL4/oboe.html>http://w
> > > >ww.idrs.org/publications/Journal/JNL4/oboe.html
> > > > >>Unfortunately I'm more confused, since it stresses the
> > > >importance to play
> > > > >>with on open throat all up to the upper register with a high
> > > >speed of air.
> > > > >>The throat should always be open, this article says.
> > > > >>Since the director of the orchestra in which I 'm playing also
> > > >asks an
> > > > >>open throat I'm desorientated in my oboe playing what's going on
> > > >about my
> > > > >>throat. Please, can someone help me?
> > > > >>
> > > > >>Thanks a lot,
> > > > >>Marianne
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >><http://us.rd.yahoo.com/search/mailsig/*http:/search.yahoo.com>Th
> > > >e New
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
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> > >
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