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Doublereed Archive - Posting 000033.txt from 2003/05
From: "Jonathan Dlouhy" <dlouhy@-----.com>
Subj: Re: [DR-L] opening throat, or not
Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 18:51:19 -0400
My pleasure.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Barbara Trautwein" <mzeztee@-----.edu>
To: "Jonathan Dlouhy" <dlouhy@-----.com>
Cc: <doublereed-l@-----.edu>
Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2003 3:51 PM
Subject: Re: [DR-L] opening throat, or not
>
> Thank you, Jonathan!
>
> B
>
>
> On Sun, 4 May 2003, Jonathan Dlouhy wrote:
>
> > This entire discussion has been far too complicated. It's like trying to fix your golf swing by talking about it with a golf instructor. If you try to make the oboe sound like you want it to, regardless of where your throat or your left ankle is, then you will get a lot closer to your ideal than by thinking about 30 different things while trying to play.
> > --
> > Jonathan Dlouhy
> > Principal Oboe,
> > Atlanta Symphony Orchestra
> > Sunday, May 04, 2003 1:13:02 PM
> > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
> > Microsoft Windows... a virus with mouse support.
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Rhondda May" <rmay@-----.com>
> > To: <doublereed-l@-----.edu>
> > Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2003 9:08 AM
> > Subject: Re: [DR-L] opening throat, or not
> > > David and all,
> > >
> > > Encouraged by your comment that it's a good discussion, I will risk
> > > jumping in here.
> > >
> > > It is possible to play with a vibrant, ringing, in-tune sound without
> > > using the throat AND without a hard reed. You do have to use your
> > > embouchure to regulate the opening of the reed, and at the same time
> > > focus the airspeed, and you do have to have an open reed that is soft
> > > enough at the tip for your to close with your mouth.
> > >
> > > I learned this from Sara Lambert Bloom, who learned it from Robert
> > > Bloom. Part of the theory behind it is that if you play on a closed
> > > reed, or a reed that is too hard to control with your embouchure, you
> > > will allow your throat to act as an embouchure (to my students I
> > > describe it as the throat really wanting to help out and just getting
> > > involved on its own, which is closer to how I think it really works,
> > > given all that has been said about what one can and cannot make the
> > > throat do). If your reed is soft and open, you can control it with your
> > > mouth (OK, I'll just come out and say it: YOUR JAW), by balancing the
> > > reed and using the weight of the left hand to help. Mr. Bloom used to
> > > use the term "lead pipe" to describe the invlovement of the thoat - that
> > > is, none at all.
> > >
> > > The synthesis of my contribution to this discussion with all the
> > > interesting things that have already been said might be thus: it's a
> > > matter of balance - strength/ openness/ manipulativeness of the reed,
> > > use of the jaw, involvement, or not, of the throat, evenness, or not, of
> > > the blowing pressure.
> > >
> > > cheers,
> > > Rhondda May
> > > Hong Kong
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > David Lurie wrote:
> > > >
> > > > At 09:26 AM 5/3/2003 -0600, you wrote:
> > > > >My student's challenge was that the "throat" itself would not
> > > > >actually influence the air stream. We discussed it for a while,
> > > > >and I've been keeping him up to speed on all your thought. We've
> > > > >tentatively come to the conclusion together that using that term
> > > > >accomplishes two things:
> > > > >1) Relaxes the muscles in the throat, and although that probably
> > > > >doesn't influence the air directly, it will affect the quality of
> > > > >sound by relaxing other things as well (my brass player husband
> > > > >feels that trying to play with an "open throat" loosens the
> > > > >tension from throat to lips). I'm still experimenting on this
> > > > >one... it doesn't seem logical to me that the muscles of the
> > > > >throat influence the air inside the trachea, but there is a
> > > > >difference in sound, so it has to be influencing something.
> > > >
> > > > There is an inherent problem here about "relaxing the throat". I will try
> > > > to keep this short by saying that playing the oboe is an inherently
> > > > unnatural thing to do. You use all sorts of muscles that you would not use
> > > > otherwise than if you weren't playing it. So that in itself is not natural.
> > > > Then to play the instrument, it is not either desirable of natural to be
> > > > relaxed. there is a great deal of stress just to blow the thing, and to
> > > > blow so much air between the blades of a tiny opening such as is found in
> > > > an oboe reed - which causes the apparently absurd situation where after
> > > > playing a passage, you are not out of breath at all but instead you have
> > > > too much stale air left in your lungs that you must expel before even being
> > > > able to take another breath. In any case, playing a brass instrument does
> > > > not pose the same problems, since there is hardly any resistance at all.
> > > > Playing the oboe requires a fairly strong resistance, which, if the reed is
> > > > resistant enough, would override any tendency to close the throat. IOW, it
> > > > would maintain the throat in an open position (desirable).
> > > >
> > > > >2) Lowers the back of the tongue and raises the soft pallet...
> > > > >which allows greater air flow and control. This is what happens
> > > > >in a yawn, this is what singers are harping about all the time.
> > > > >This produces a noticeable difference in sound (and can also
> > > > >loosen the embouchure in a student who's clamping).
> > > >
> > > > Again, comparison of singing with playing the oboe is not applicable, just
> > > > because the mechanics of sound production with a reed are so utterly
> > > > different from having no resistance whatsoever for the spoken voice.
> > > >
> > > > >My physician student told me that the trachea is not a flexible
> > > > >track (it can go up and down like an accordian, but not in and
> > > > >out). If I push on mine from the outside, it seems pretty hard
> > > > >and doesn't move. But you can make it voluntarily longer or
> > > > >shorter. The vocal chords concept is interesting, but I learned
> > > > >while singing that when you're not making noise the vocal chords
> > > > >are open and relaxed. I'm not sure if you can close and open them
> > > > >slightly while not making noise... I'm going to do some research
> > > > >on that.
> > > >
> > > > Here again, the vocal chords play no role at all in sound production. There
> > > > is an excercize I learned as a student, which involves playing on a fairly
> > > > resistant reed, and then allowing the vocal chords to vibrate producing a
> > > > guttural sound while trying to keep the sound of the oboe going steadily.
> > > > This is not at all easy to do, but if you can do it, it is evidence that
> > > > you have indeed maintained the throat as open as possible.
> > > >
> > > > >Thanks everyone for your opinions! This kind of debate is fun for
> > > > >me (I'm sure quite a few people are finding it boring). Love this
> > > > >list!
> > > >
> > > > I agree, this is a good discussion going on here.
> > > >
> > > > David Lurie
> > > >
> > > > >Beth
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
> > > > >From: David Lurie <david.lurie@-----.net>
> > > > >Reply-To: doublereed-l@-----.edu
> > > > >Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 11:53:50 -0400
> > > > >
> > > > > >At 03:00 PM 5/1/2003 -0600, you wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >>I have to jump in here. Could someone explain the physical
> > > > >properties
> > > > > >>behind an open throat ? The trachea can t actual expand and
> > > > >contract can
> > > > > >>it? And moving all the other stuff in the throat (swelling of
> > > > >the neck,
> > > > > >>etc.) shouldn t affect the air stream any, or does it?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Without getting into the detailed anatomy of this, which I am
> > > > >incompetent
> > > > > >to do in any case, it is easy to see "all the other stuff" that
> > > > >you refer
> > > > > >to move even if you only do something so simple as to blow on a
> > > > >reed. If
> > > > > >you blow hard enough on the reed, you can observe the outside of
> > > > >the neck
> > > > > >physically swelling to a larger size. The importance of this is
> > > > >that it
> > > > > >makes a difference to playing music on the oboe if the air stream
> > > > >is
> > > > > >altered by the neck/throat changing size during playing. This can
> > > > >be heard
> > > > > >if you listen carefully enough. The effect is one of
> > > > >inconsistency in the
> > > > > >musical line. Having a reed that is sufficiently resistant is one
> > > > >of
> > > > > >several steps that can be taken to solving this problem.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >> I understand how the mouth would affect things, and perhaps
> > > > >the opening
> > > > > >> of the throat at the point where it connects to the mouth (I
> > > > >don t know
> > > > > >> if that can be controlled voluntarily or not).
> > > > > >
> > > > > >IMO, there may be a little - but very little - voluntary control
> > > > >over it.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >> What actually opens or closes , and does the swelling of the
> > > > >neck
> > > > > >> actually affect the air? I ve used the term open your throat
> > > > >myself for
> > > > > >> a long time, but one of my students (a physician, actually),
> > > > >challenged
> > > > > >> me on it recently. I promised to do some research, and this is
> > > > >a good
> > > > > >> opportunity. Any answers?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >I would like to know what was your student's challenge?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >David Lurie
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>-----Original Message-----
> > > > > >>From: doublereed-l-admin@-----.edu
> > > > > >>[mailto:doublereed-l-admin@-----.edu] On Behalf Of David
> > > > >Lurie
> > > > > >>Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2003 1:27 PM
> > > > > >>To: doublereed-l@-----.edu
> > > > > >>Subject: Re: [DR-L] opening throat upper register oboe
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>I would like to add my 2 cents here. this subject has come up
> > > > >before, but
> > > > > >>I don't recall any resolution to it, and there probably is no
> > > > >resolution
> > > > > >>to it as long as different system of playing are used. What you
> > > > >describe I
> > > > > >>believe is one of the basic differences between one of the
> > > > >European
> > > > > >>systems and the American system of oboe playing. So of course
> > > > >there are
> > > > > >>going to be some fundamental factors involved here. I will speak
> > > > >about
> > > > > >>what I learned in the American system, in which the throat must
> > > > >be as open
> > > > > >>as possible at all times. This allows the production of a
> > > > >ringing vibrant
> > > > > >>tone quality that is well supported and which sounds solid. In
> > > > >order to
> > > > > >>accomplish this, there must be sufficient resistance in the reed
> > > > >so that
> > > > > >>when you blow, it forces the tissues in the throat to remain in
> > > > >an open
> > > > > >>position. IOW, a fairly resistant reed is required, to prevent
> > > > >any
> > > > > >>activity in the throat - muscles which could only cause it to
> > > > >close and
> > > > > >>which would interfere with the production of an open sound. The
> > > > >muscles in
> > > > > >>that area of the body are under very little voluntary control,
> > > > >so there's
> > > > > >>not much that can be done with them except to interfere with
> > > > >column of air
> > > > > >>by closing it down. When this happens - with a less resistant
> > > > >reed - it
> > > > > >>is possible to produce a throat vibrato, although that
> > > > >represents an
> > > > > >>interference with the sound, not an integral part of it, which
> > > > >the vibrato
> > > > > >>should be. Vibrato is of course a separate although closely
> > > > >related subject.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>In this system, the reed should allow the use of a full column
> > > > >of air and
> > > > > >>a feeling of something fairly substantial to push against when
> > > > >blowing. If
> > > > > >>it is done correctly, this will cause the outside of the neck to
> > > > >enlarge
> > > > > >>and be visibly larger. The neck should stay that way during the
> > > > >entire
> > > > > >>time the instrument is being played - and constitutes proof that
> > > > >the
> > > > > >>throat is really fully open. In this system, if the neck/throat
> > > > > >>combination is used to modify the sound, then it will have a
> > > > >definite
> > > > > >>affect on the tone quality - in my opinion a negative one.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>David Lurie
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>At 06:22 AM 5/1/2003 -0700, you wrote:
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>Dear oboists,
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>I'm a little confused about the opening of the throat while
> > > > >oboe playing.
> > > > > >>My teacher -whom I adore and is really very good!!!- took
> > > > >lessons with T.
> > > > > >>Indermuhle and M. Bourgue and he teached me an exercise to
> > > > >create a
> > > > > >>brilliant tone in the upper register: just take you're reed out
> > > > >of your
> > > > > >>instrument and blow a c on it (not crowing, but playing). Then,
> > > > >by
> > > > > >>changing only the opening of you're throat (making it smaller)
> > > > >move on to
> > > > > >>a cis and d without changing the lippressure!! Then play on the
> > > > > >>instrument the upper register with the narrow opening and the
> > > > >lower
> > > > > >>register with a more open throat. My big problem however is dat
> > > > >when I
> > > > > >>"close" my throat to play the notes in te upper register with
> > > > >more
> > > > > >>brilliance and energy, the pitch is much too high. My teacher
> > > > >says this is
> > > > > >>because my lip pressure is maybe to high, but when I play a high
> > > > >c and I
> > > > > >>don't change my lips and only the opening in my throat,its pitch
> > > > >is
> > > > > >>ascending too!!(and this is only a logical result o! f the
> > > > >exercise I
> > > > > >>think, since the pitch is also rising while making the opening
> > > > >in you're
> > > > > >>throat smaller when playing on the reed alone)
> > > > > >>In panic I consulted the internet about this subject and I did
> > > > >find an
> > > > > >>interesting article about it:
> > > > > >><http://www.idrs.org/publications/Journal/JNL4/oboe.html>http://w
> > > > >ww.idrs.org/publications/Journal/JNL4/oboe.html
> > > > > >>Unfortunately I'm more confused, since it stresses the
> > > > >importance to play
> > > > > >>with on open throat all up to the upper register with a high
> > > > >speed of air.
> > > > > >>The throat should always be open, this article says.
> > > > > >>Since the director of the orchestra in which I 'm playing also
> > > > >asks an
> > > > > >>open throat I'm desorientated in my oboe playing what's going on
> > > > >about my
> > > > > >>throat. Please, can someone help me?
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>Thanks a lot,
> > > > > >>Marianne
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >><http://us.rd.yahoo.com/search/mailsig/*http:/search.yahoo.com>Th
> > > > >e New
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
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