Doublereed Archive - Posting 000032.txt from 2003/05

From: David Lurie <david.lurie@-----.net>
Subj: Re: [DR-L] opening throat, or not
Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 18:06:42 -0400

At 09:08 PM 5/4/2003 +0800, you wrote:
>David and all,
>
>Encouraged by your comment that it's a good discussion, I will risk
>jumping in here.

Good, and I assure you there's very little risk. Besides, you made some
good points.

>It is possible to play with a vibrant, ringing, in-tune sound without
>using the throat AND without a hard reed.

I agree, and of course hardness in reeds is a very relative thing.

> You do have to use your
>embouchure to regulate the opening of the reed, and at the same time
>focus the airspeed, and you do have to have an open reed that is soft
>enough at the tip for your to close with your mouth.

The one thing I don't understand here is what exactly does "...focus the
airspeed..." mean? I have heard the expression "airspeed" before but never
knew what it meant. If you blow harder then I suppose the air goes through
faster, but is this what's meant by that phrase?

>I learned this from Sara Lambert Bloom, who learned it from Robert
>Bloom. Part of the theory behind it is that if you play on a closed
>reed, or a reed that is too hard to control with your embouchure, you
>will allow your throat to act as an embouchure (to my students I
>describe it as the throat really wanting to help out and just getting
>involved on its own, which is closer to how I think it really works,
>given all that has been said about what one can and cannot make the
>throat do). If your reed is soft and open, you can control it with your
>mouth (OK, I'll just come out and say it: YOUR JAW), by balancing the
>reed and using the weight of the left hand to help. Mr. Bloom used to
>use the term "lead pipe" to describe the invlovement of the thoat - that
>is, none at all.

Interesting. I studied with Robert Sprenkle who I believe studied with
Bloom, so we are probably talking about the same thing here.

David Lurie

>The synthesis of my contribution to this discussion with all the
>interesting things that have already been said might be thus: it's a
>matter of balance - strength/ openness/ manipulativeness of the reed,
>use of the jaw, involvement, or not, of the throat, evenness, or not, of
>the blowing pressure.
>
>cheers,
>Rhondda May
>Hong Kong
>
>
>
>David Lurie wrote:
> >
> > At 09:26 AM 5/3/2003 -0600, you wrote:
> > >My student's challenge was that the "throat" itself would not
> > >actually influence the air stream. We discussed it for a while,
> > >and I've been keeping him up to speed on all your thought. We've
> > >tentatively come to the conclusion together that using that term
> > >accomplishes two things:
> > >1) Relaxes the muscles in the throat, and although that probably
> > >doesn't influence the air directly, it will affect the quality of
> > >sound by relaxing other things as well (my brass player husband
> > >feels that trying to play with an "open throat" loosens the
> > >tension from throat to lips). I'm still experimenting on this
> > >one... it doesn't seem logical to me that the muscles of the
> > >throat influence the air inside the trachea, but there is a
> > >difference in sound, so it has to be influencing something.
> >
> > There is an inherent problem here about "relaxing the throat". I will try
> > to keep this short by saying that playing the oboe is an inherently
> > unnatural thing to do. You use all sorts of muscles that you would not use
> > otherwise than if you weren't playing it. So that in itself is not natural.
> > Then to play the instrument, it is not either desirable of natural to be
> > relaxed. there is a great deal of stress just to blow the thing, and to
> > blow so much air between the blades of a tiny opening such as is found in
> > an oboe reed - which causes the apparently absurd situation where after
> > playing a passage, you are not out of breath at all but instead you have
> > too much stale air left in your lungs that you must expel before even being
> > able to take another breath. In any case, playing a brass instrument does
> > not pose the same problems, since there is hardly any resistance at all.
> > Playing the oboe requires a fairly strong resistance, which, if the reed is
> > resistant enough, would override any tendency to close the throat. IOW, it
> > would maintain the throat in an open position (desirable).
> >
> > >2) Lowers the back of the tongue and raises the soft pallet...
> > >which allows greater air flow and control. This is what happens
> > >in a yawn, this is what singers are harping about all the time.
> > >This produces a noticeable difference in sound (and can also
> > >loosen the embouchure in a student who's clamping).
> >
> > Again, comparison of singing with playing the oboe is not applicable, just
> > because the mechanics of sound production with a reed are so utterly
> > different from having no resistance whatsoever for the spoken voice.
> >
> > >My physician student told me that the trachea is not a flexible
> > >track (it can go up and down like an accordian, but not in and
> > >out). If I push on mine from the outside, it seems pretty hard
> > >and doesn't move. But you can make it voluntarily longer or
> > >shorter. The vocal chords concept is interesting, but I learned
> > >while singing that when you're not making noise the vocal chords
> > >are open and relaxed. I'm not sure if you can close and open them
> > >slightly while not making noise... I'm going to do some research
> > >on that.
> >
> > Here again, the vocal chords play no role at all in sound production. There
> > is an excercize I learned as a student, which involves playing on a fairly
> > resistant reed, and then allowing the vocal chords to vibrate producing a
> > guttural sound while trying to keep the sound of the oboe going steadily.
> > This is not at all easy to do, but if you can do it, it is evidence that
> > you have indeed maintained the throat as open as possible.
> >
> > >Thanks everyone for your opinions! This kind of debate is fun for
> > >me (I'm sure quite a few people are finding it boring). Love this
> > >list!
> >
> > I agree, this is a good discussion going on here.
> >
> > David Lurie
> >
> > >Beth
> > >
> > >
> > >---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
> > >From: David Lurie <david.lurie@-----.net>
> > >Reply-To: doublereed-l@-----.edu
> > >Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 11:53:50 -0400
> > >
> > > >At 03:00 PM 5/1/2003 -0600, you wrote:
> > > >
> > > >>I have to jump in here. Could someone explain the physical
> > >properties
> > > >>behind an open throat ? The trachea can t actual expand and
> > >contract can
> > > >>it? And moving all the other stuff in the throat (swelling of
> > >the neck,
> > > >>etc.) shouldn t affect the air stream any, or does it?
> > > >
> > > >Without getting into the detailed anatomy of this, which I am
> > >incompetent
> > > >to do in any case, it is easy to see "all the other stuff" that
> > >you refer
> > > >to move even if you only do something so simple as to blow on a
> > >reed. If
> > > >you blow hard enough on the reed, you can observe the outside of
> > >the neck
> > > >physically swelling to a larger size. The importance of this is
> > >that it
> > > >makes a difference to playing music on the oboe if the air stream
> > >is
> > > >altered by the neck/throat changing size during playing. This can
> > >be heard
> > > >if you listen carefully enough. The effect is one of
> > >inconsistency in the
> > > >musical line. Having a reed that is sufficiently resistant is one
> > >of
> > > >several steps that can be taken to solving this problem.
> > > >
> > > >> I understand how the mouth would affect things, and perhaps
> > >the opening
> > > >> of the throat at the point where it connects to the mouth (I
> > >don t know
> > > >> if that can be controlled voluntarily or not).
> > > >
> > > >IMO, there may be a little - but very little - voluntary control
> > >over it.
> > > >
> > > >> What actually opens or closes , and does the swelling of the
> > >neck
> > > >> actually affect the air? I ve used the term open your throat
> > >myself for
> > > >> a long time, but one of my students (a physician, actually),
> > >challenged
> > > >> me on it recently. I promised to do some research, and this is
> > >a good
> > > >> opportunity. Any answers?
> > > >
> > > >I would like to know what was your student's challenge?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >David Lurie
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>-----Original Message-----
> > > >>From: doublereed-l-admin@-----.edu
> > > >>[mailto:doublereed-l-admin@-----.edu] On Behalf Of David
> > >Lurie
> > > >>Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2003 1:27 PM
> > > >>To: doublereed-l@-----.edu
> > > >>Subject: Re: [DR-L] opening throat upper register oboe
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>I would like to add my 2 cents here. this subject has come up
> > >before, but
> > > >>I don't recall any resolution to it, and there probably is no
> > >resolution
> > > >>to it as long as different system of playing are used. What you
> > >describe I
> > > >>believe is one of the basic differences between one of the
> > >European
> > > >>systems and the American system of oboe playing. So of course
> > >there are
> > > >>going to be some fundamental factors involved here. I will speak
> > >about
> > > >>what I learned in the American system, in which the throat must
> > >be as open
> > > >>as possible at all times. This allows the production of a
> > >ringing vibrant
> > > >>tone quality that is well supported and which sounds solid. In
> > >order to
> > > >>accomplish this, there must be sufficient resistance in the reed
> > >so that
> > > >>when you blow, it forces the tissues in the throat to remain in
> > >an open
> > > >>position. IOW, a fairly resistant reed is required, to prevent
> > >any
> > > >>activity in the throat - muscles which could only cause it to
> > >close and
> > > >>which would interfere with the production of an open sound. The
> > >muscles in
> > > >>that area of the body are under very little voluntary control,
> > >so there's
> > > >>not much that can be done with them except to interfere with
> > >column of air
> > > >>by closing it down. When this happens - with a less resistant
> > >reed - it
> > > >>is possible to produce a throat vibrato, although that
> > >represents an
> > > >>interference with the sound, not an integral part of it, which
> > >the vibrato
> > > >>should be. Vibrato is of course a separate although closely
> > >related subject.
> > > >>
> > > >>In this system, the reed should allow the use of a full column
> > >of air and
> > > >>a feeling of something fairly substantial to push against when
> > >blowing. If
> > > >>it is done correctly, this will cause the outside of the neck to
> > >enlarge
> > > >>and be visibly larger. The neck should stay that way during the
> > >entire
> > > >>time the instrument is being played - and constitutes proof that
> > >the
> > > >>throat is really fully open. In this system, if the neck/throat
> > > >>combination is used to modify the sound, then it will have a
> > >definite
> > > >>affect on the tone quality - in my opinion a negative one.
> > > >>
> > > >>David Lurie
> > > >>
> > > >>At 06:22 AM 5/1/2003 -0700, you wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>Dear oboists,
> > > >>
> > > >>I'm a little confused about the opening of the throat while
> > >oboe playing.
> > > >>My teacher -whom I adore and is really very good!!!- took
> > >lessons with T.
> > > >>Indermuhle and M. Bourgue and he teached me an exercise to
> > >create a
> > > >>brilliant tone in the upper register: just take you're reed out
> > >of your
> > > >>instrument and blow a c on it (not crowing, but playing). Then,
> > >by
> > > >>changing only the opening of you're throat (making it smaller)
> > >move on to
> > > >>a cis and d without changing the lippressure!! Then play on the
> > > >>instrument the upper register with the narrow opening and the
> > >lower
> > > >>register with a more open throat. My big problem however is dat
> > >when I
> > > >>"close" my throat to play the notes in te upper register with
> > >more
> > > >>brilliance and energy, the pitch is much too high. My teacher
> > >says this is
> > > >>because my lip pressure is maybe to high, but when I play a high
> > >c and I
> > > >>don't change my lips and only the opening in my throat,its pitch
> > >is
> > > >>ascending too!!(and this is only a logical result o! f the
> > >exercise I
> > > >>think, since the pitch is also rising while making the opening
> > >in you're
> > > >>throat smaller when playing on the reed alone)
> > > >>In panic I consulted the internet about this subject and I did
> > >find an
> > > >>interesting article about it:
> > > >><http://www.idrs.org/publications/Journal/JNL4/oboe.html>http://w
> > >ww.idrs.org/publications/Journal/JNL4/oboe.html
> > > >>Unfortunately I'm more confused, since it stresses the
> > >importance to play
> > > >>with on open throat all up to the upper register with a high
> > >speed of air.
> > > >>The throat should always be open, this article says.
> > > >>Since the director of the orchestra in which I 'm playing also
> > >asks an
> > > >>open throat I'm desorientated in my oboe playing what's going on
> > >about my
> > > >>throat. Please, can someone help me?
> > > >>
> > > >>Thanks a lot,
> > > >>Marianne
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >><http://us.rd.yahoo.com/search/mailsig/*http:/search.yahoo.com>Th
> > >e New
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
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> >
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