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Doublereed Archive - Posting 000030.txt from 2003/05

From: Barbara Trautwein <mzeztee@-----.edu>
Subj: Re: [DR-L] opening throat, or not
Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 15:51:24 -0400

Thank you, Jonathan!

B

On Sun, 4 May 2003, Jonathan Dlouhy wrote:

> This entire discussion has been far too complicated. It's like trying to fix your golf swing by talking about it with a golf instructor. If you try to make the oboe sound like you want it to, regardless of where your throat or your left ankle is, then you will get a lot closer to your ideal than by thinking about 30 different things while trying to play.
>
>
>
> --
>
> Jonathan Dlouhy
>
> Principal Oboe,
>
> Atlanta Symphony Orchestra
>
> Sunday, May 04, 2003 1:13:02 PM
>
> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>
> Microsoft Windows... a virus with mouse support.
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: "Rhondda May" <rmay@-----.com>
>
> To: <doublereed-l@-----.edu>
>
> Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2003 9:08 AM
>
> Subject: Re: [DR-L] opening throat, or not
>
>
>
>
>
> > David and all,
>
> >
>
> > Encouraged by your comment that it's a good discussion, I will risk
>
> > jumping in here.
>
> >
>
> > It is possible to play with a vibrant, ringing, in-tune sound without
>
> > using the throat AND without a hard reed. You do have to use your
>
> > embouchure to regulate the opening of the reed, and at the same time
>
> > focus the airspeed, and you do have to have an open reed that is soft
>
> > enough at the tip for your to close with your mouth.
>
> >
>
> > I learned this from Sara Lambert Bloom, who learned it from Robert
>
> > Bloom. Part of the theory behind it is that if you play on a closed
>
> > reed, or a reed that is too hard to control with your embouchure, you
>
> > will allow your throat to act as an embouchure (to my students I
>
> > describe it as the throat really wanting to help out and just getting
>
> > involved on its own, which is closer to how I think it really works,
>
> > given all that has been said about what one can and cannot make the
>
> > throat do). If your reed is soft and open, you can control it with your
>
> > mouth (OK, I'll just come out and say it: YOUR JAW), by balancing the
>
> > reed and using the weight of the left hand to help. Mr. Bloom used to
>
> > use the term "lead pipe" to describe the invlovement of the thoat - that
>
> > is, none at all.
>
> >
>
> > The synthesis of my contribution to this discussion with all the
>
> > interesting things that have already been said might be thus: it's a
>
> > matter of balance - strength/ openness/ manipulativeness of the reed,
>
> > use of the jaw, involvement, or not, of the throat, evenness, or not, of
>
> > the blowing pressure.
>
> >
>
> > cheers,
>
> > Rhondda May
>
> > Hong Kong
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > David Lurie wrote:
>
> > >
>
> > > At 09:26 AM 5/3/2003 -0600, you wrote:
>
> > > >My student's challenge was that the "throat" itself would not
>
> > > >actually influence the air stream. We discussed it for a while,
>
> > > >and I've been keeping him up to speed on all your thought. We've
>
> > > >tentatively come to the conclusion together that using that term
>
> > > >accomplishes two things:
>
> > > >1) Relaxes the muscles in the throat, and although that probably
>
> > > >doesn't influence the air directly, it will affect the quality of
>
> > > >sound by relaxing other things as well (my brass player husband
>
> > > >feels that trying to play with an "open throat" loosens the
>
> > > >tension from throat to lips). I'm still experimenting on this
>
> > > >one... it doesn't seem logical to me that the muscles of the
>
> > > >throat influence the air inside the trachea, but there is a
>
> > > >difference in sound, so it has to be influencing something.
>
> > >
>
> > > There is an inherent problem here about "relaxing the throat". I will try
>
> > > to keep this short by saying that playing the oboe is an inherently
>
> > > unnatural thing to do. You use all sorts of muscles that you would not use
>
> > > otherwise than if you weren't playing it. So that in itself is not natural.
>
> > > Then to play the instrument, it is not either desirable of natural to be
>
> > > relaxed. there is a great deal of stress just to blow the thing, and to
>
> > > blow so much air between the blades of a tiny opening such as is found in
>
> > > an oboe reed - which causes the apparently absurd situation where after
>
> > > playing a passage, you are not out of breath at all but instead you have
>
> > > too much stale air left in your lungs that you must expel before even being
>
> > > able to take another breath. In any case, playing a brass instrument does
>
> > > not pose the same problems, since there is hardly any resistance at all.
>
> > > Playing the oboe requires a fairly strong resistance, which, if the reed is
>
> > > resistant enough, would override any tendency to close the throat. IOW, it
>
> > > would maintain the throat in an open position (desirable).
>
> > >
>
> > > >2) Lowers the back of the tongue and raises the soft pallet...
>
> > > >which allows greater air flow and control. This is what happens
>
> > > >in a yawn, this is what singers are harping about all the time.
>
> > > >This produces a noticeable difference in sound (and can also
>
> > > >loosen the embouchure in a student who's clamping).
>
> > >
>
> > > Again, comparison of singing with playing the oboe is not applicable, just
>
> > > because the mechanics of sound production with a reed are so utterly
>
> > > different from having no resistance whatsoever for the spoken voice.
>
> > >
>
> > > >My physician student told me that the trachea is not a flexible
>
> > > >track (it can go up and down like an accordian, but not in and
>
> > > >out). If I push on mine from the outside, it seems pretty hard
>
> > > >and doesn't move. But you can make it voluntarily longer or
>
> > > >shorter. The vocal chords concept is interesting, but I learned
>
> > > >while singing that when you're not making noise the vocal chords
>
> > > >are open and relaxed. I'm not sure if you can close and open them
>
> > > >slightly while not making noise... I'm going to do some research
>
> > > >on that.
>
> > >
>
> > > Here again, the vocal chords play no role at all in sound production. There
>
> > > is an excercize I learned as a student, which involves playing on a fairly
>
> > > resistant reed, and then allowing the vocal chords to vibrate producing a
>
> > > guttural sound while trying to keep the sound of the oboe going steadily.
>
> > > This is not at all easy to do, but if you can do it, it is evidence that
>
> > > you have indeed maintained the throat as open as possible.
>
> > >
>
> > > >Thanks everyone for your opinions! This kind of debate is fun for
>
> > > >me (I'm sure quite a few people are finding it boring). Love this
>
> > > >list!
>
> > >
>
> > > I agree, this is a good discussion going on here.
>
> > >
>
> > > David Lurie
>
> > >
>
> > > >Beth
>
> > > >
>
> > > >
>
> > > >---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
>
> > > >From: David Lurie <david.lurie@-----.net>
>
> > > >Reply-To: doublereed-l@-----.edu
>
> > > >Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 11:53:50 -0400
>
> > > >
>
> > > > >At 03:00 PM 5/1/2003 -0600, you wrote:
>
> > > > >
>
> > > > >>I have to jump in here. Could someone explain the physical
>
> > > >properties
>
> > > > >>behind an open throat ? The trachea can t actual expand and
>
> > > >contract can
>
> > > > >>it? And moving all the other stuff in the throat (swelling of
>
> > > >the neck,
>
> > > > >>etc.) shouldn t affect the air stream any, or does it?
>
> > > > >
>
> > > > >Without getting into the detailed anatomy of this, which I am
>
> > > >incompetent
>
> > > > >to do in any case, it is easy to see "all the other stuff" that
>
> > > >you refer
>
> > > > >to move even if you only do something so simple as to blow on a
>
> > > >reed. If
>
> > > > >you blow hard enough on the reed, you can observe the outside of
>
> > > >the neck
>
> > > > >physically swelling to a larger size. The importance of this is
>
> > > >that it
>
> > > > >makes a difference to playing music on the oboe if the air stream
>
> > > >is
>
> > > > >altered by the neck/throat changing size during playing. This can
>
> > > >be heard
>
> > > > >if you listen carefully enough. The effect is one of
>
> > > >inconsistency in the
>
> > > > >musical line. Having a reed that is sufficiently resistant is one
>
> > > >of
>
> > > > >several steps that can be taken to solving this problem.
>
> > > > >
>
> > > > >> I understand how the mouth would affect things, and perhaps
>
> > > >the opening
>
> > > > >> of the throat at the point where it connects to the mouth (I
>
> > > >don t know
>
> > > > >> if that can be controlled voluntarily or not).
>
> > > > >
>
> > > > >IMO, there may be a little - but very little - voluntary control
>
> > > >over it.
>
> > > > >
>
> > > > >> What actually opens or closes , and does the swelling of the
>
> > > >neck
>
> > > > >> actually affect the air? I ve used the term open your throat
>
> > > >myself for
>
> > > > >> a long time, but one of my students (a physician, actually),
>
> > > >challenged
>
> > > > >> me on it recently. I promised to do some research, and this is
>
> > > >a good
>
> > > > >> opportunity. Any answers?
>
> > > > >
>
> > > > >I would like to know what was your student's challenge?
>
> > > > >
>
> > > > >
>
> > > > >David Lurie
>
> > > > >>
>
> > > > >>
>
> > > > >>-----Original Message-----
>
> > > > >>From: doublereed-l-admin@-----.edu
>
> > > > >>[mailto:doublereed-l-admin@-----.edu] On Behalf Of David
>
> > > >Lurie
>
> > > > >>Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2003 1:27 PM
>
> > > > >>To: doublereed-l@-----.edu
>
> > > > >>Subject: Re: [DR-L] opening throat upper register oboe
>
> > > > >>
>
> > > > >>
>
> > > > >>
>
> > > > >>I would like to add my 2 cents here. this subject has come up
>
> > > >before, but
>
> > > > >>I don't recall any resolution to it, and there probably is no
>
> > > >resolution
>
> > > > >>to it as long as different system of playing are used. What you
>
> > > >describe I
>
> > > > >>believe is one of the basic differences between one of the
>
> > > >European
>
> > > > >>systems and the American system of oboe playing. So of course
>
> > > >there are
>
> > > > >>going to be some fundamental factors involved here. I will speak
>
> > > >about
>
> > > > >>what I learned in the American system, in which the throat must
>
> > > >be as open
>
> > > > >>as possible at all times. This allows the production of a
>
> > > >ringing vibrant
>
> > > > >>tone quality that is well supported and which sounds solid. In
>
> > > >order to
>
> > > > >>accomplish this, there must be sufficient resistance in the reed
>
> > > >so that
>
> > > > >>when you blow, it forces the tissues in the throat to remain in
>
> > > >an open
>
> > > > >>position. IOW, a fairly resistant reed is required, to prevent
>
> > > >any
>
> > > > >>activity in the throat - muscles which could only cause it to
>
> > > >close and
>
> > > > >>which would interfere with the production of an open sound. The
>
> > > >muscles in
>
> > > > >>that area of the body are under very little voluntary control,
>
> > > >so there's
>
> > > > >>not much that can be done with them except to interfere with
>
> > > >column of air
>
> > > > >>by closing it down. When this happens - with a less resistant
>
> > > >reed - it
>
> > > > >>is possible to produce a throat vibrato, although that
>
> > > >represents an
>
> > > > >>interference with the sound, not an integral part of it, which
>
> > > >the vibrato
>
> > > > >>should be. Vibrato is of course a separate although closely
>
> > > >related subject.
>
> > > > >>
>
> > > > >>In this system, the reed should allow the use of a full column
>
> > > >of air and
>
> > > > >>a feeling of something fairly substantial to push against when
>
> > > >blowing. If
>
> > > > >>it is done correctly, this will cause the outside of the neck to
>
> > > >enlarge
>
> > > > >>and be visibly larger. The neck should stay that way during the
>
> > > >entire
>
> > > > >>time the instrument is being played - and constitutes proof that
>
> > > >the
>
> > > > >>throat is really fully open. In this system, if the neck/throat
>
> > > > >>combination is used to modify the sound, then it will have a
>
> > > >definite
>
> > > > >>affect on the tone quality - in my opinion a negative one.
>
> > > > >>
>
> > > > >>David Lurie
>
> > > > >>
>
> > > > >>At 06:22 AM 5/1/2003 -0700, you wrote:
>
> > > > >>
>
> > > > >>Dear oboists,
>
> > > > >>
>
> > > > >>I'm a little confused about the opening of the throat while
>
> > > >oboe playing.
>
> > > > >>My teacher -whom I adore and is really very good!!!- took
>
> > > >lessons with T.
>
> > > > >>Indermuhle and M. Bourgue and he teached me an exercise to
>
> > > >create a
>
> > > > >>brilliant tone in the upper register: just take you're reed out
>
> > > >of your
>
> > > > >>instrument and blow a c on it (not crowing, but playing). Then,
>
> > > >by
>
> > > > >>changing only the opening of you're throat (making it smaller)
>
> > > >move on to
>
> > > > >>a cis and d without changing the lippressure!! Then play on the
>
> > > > >>instrument the upper register with the narrow opening and the
>
> > > >lower
>
> > > > >>register with a more open throat. My big problem however is dat
>
> > > >when I
>
> > > > >>"close" my throat to play the notes in te upper register with
>
> > > >more
>
> > > > >>brilliance and energy, the pitch is much too high. My teacher
>
> > > >says this is
>
> > > > >>because my lip pressure is maybe to high, but when I play a high
>
> > > >c and I
>
> > > > >>don't change my lips and only the opening in my throat,its pitch
>
> > > >is
>
> > > > >>ascending too!!(and this is only a logical result o! f the
>
> > > >exercise I
>
> > > > >>think, since the pitch is also rising while making the opening
>
> > > >in you're
>
> > > > >>throat smaller when playing on the reed alone)
>
> > > > >>In panic I consulted the internet about this subject and I did
>
> > > >find an
>
> > > > >>interesting article about it:
>
> > > > >><http://www.idrs.org/publications/Journal/JNL4/oboe.html>http://w
>
> > > >ww.idrs.org/publications/Journal/JNL4/oboe.html
>
> > > > >>Unfortunately I'm more confused, since it stresses the
>
> > > >importance to play
>
> > > > >>with on open throat all up to the upper register with a high
>
> > > >speed of air.
>
> > > > >>The throat should always be open, this article says.
>
> > > > >>Since the director of the orchestra in which I 'm playing also
>
> > > >asks an
>
> > > > >>open throat I'm desorientated in my oboe playing what's going on
>
> > > >about my
>
> > > > >>throat. Please, can someone help me?
>
> > > > >>
>
> > > > >>Thanks a lot,
>
> > > > >>Marianne
>
> > > > >>
>
> > > > >>
>
> > > > >>
>
> > > > >>
>
>
> > > > >><http://us.rd.yahoo.com/search/mailsig/*http:/search.yahoo.com>Th
>
> > > >e New
>
>
> > > > >>
>
> > > > >>
>
> > > > >
>
> > > > >
>
> > > > >
>
> > > >
>
>
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>
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>
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>
> > >
>
>
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>
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